Counter argument to statements of fear?

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Re: Counter argument to statements of fear?

Postby gfrlaser » Wed Jun 04, 2014 6:53 am

I can't help but feel that perhaps instead of you trying to counter the argument, you need a find a woman that can assist in the self defense training that believes a woman should also have the choice to include firearms in her defense strateigies. Maybe as a woman talking to woman, views can change. Mostly I think you will never change her mind.
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Re: Counter argument to statements of fear?

Postby Stryker74 » Wed Jun 04, 2014 10:55 am

gfrlaser wrote:I can't help but feel that perhaps instead of you trying to counter the argument, you need a find a woman that can assist in the self defense training that believes a woman should also have the choice to include firearms in her defense strateigies. Maybe as a woman talking to woman, views can change. Mostly I think you will never change her mind.


That was a thought as well. Unfortunately, I may have damaged those chances as I have been shut down completely on the topic. She told me the other day that an officer with the local PD is going to be hosting a free unarmed defense class that he personally invite them to attend.

It seems that he has convinced them that he can teach them how to defend against and elude from an attacker. Not sure if the class includes any ballistic undergarments though... :roll:

i am not against LEOs, and the last thing I ever want to do is bash them (they perform a stressful duty for the community and generally deserve my respect). But, I feel as if this officer is doing these ladies a disservice in this instance. Nothing wrong with learning unarmed combat - it can be helpful, but I would hate for these women to think that is all they are ever going to need.
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Re: Counter argument to statements of fear?

Postby Klingon00 » Wed Jun 04, 2014 12:45 pm

You can take a horse to water but you can't make them drink.

We all have different paths we take on the journey of life and coming to terms with the realities of the responsibility of self defense. Sometimes its best we come to those conclusions on our own (though it never hurts to offer help). Unfortunately some never really learn until it's too late.

Unfortunately for your friend, if her opinion of these women is so low that they can never be trusted to defend themselves with a firearm, then what hope do they have to be serious in defending themselves unarmed?

Sadly, most arguments I hear about why women and minorities shouldn't arm themselves for self defense are almost always insulting to the people they claim to support.
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Re: Counter argument to statements of fear?

Postby gfrlaser » Thu Jun 05, 2014 7:09 am

Might have to just let it be as "anything is better than nothing". At minimum, it may open some of the participates eyes to the option of armed self defense. If just one is sold on the idea, chalk it up to a success.
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Re: Counter argument to statements of fear?

Postby Klingon00 » Thu Jun 05, 2014 11:41 am

The fact that they are thinking about defense at all is a move in the right direction and a applaud that effort.
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Re: Counter argument to statements of fear?

Postby Brian D. » Thu Jun 05, 2014 12:00 pm

Stryker74 wrote:
gfrlaser wrote:I can't help but feel that perhaps instead of you trying to counter the argument, you need a find a woman that can assist in the self defense training that believes a woman should also have the choice to include firearms in her defense strateigies. Maybe as a woman talking to woman, views can change. Mostly I think you will never change her mind.


That was a thought as well. Unfortunately, I may have damaged those chances as I have been shut down completely on the topic. She told me the other day that an officer with the local PD is going to be hosting a free unarmed defense class that he personally invite them to attend.

It seems that he has convinced them that he can teach them how to defend against and elude from an attacker. Not sure if the class includes any ballistic undergarments though... :roll:


I feel your frustration. Down my way there's a well known husband/wife team who had LE backgrounds and for years, taught unarmed self defense. The wife did most of this training, as she left the LE agency while her husband stayed on, and seemed to practically gloss over the notion of being armed with a firearm, even in the context of protection inside one's own home. In fairness, they started this work long before licensed concealed carry was on the scene in Ohio. But even after 2004, I'd hear them on local radio or check their website and see almost no mention of firearms. Instead the wife seemed to focus on things like heavy key rings with pointy keys as a face rake implement. Better than fingernails I suppose, and maybe it's that my view is based on primarily surviving (and perhaps prevailing) in a fight I didn't want or start to begin with, rather than just how "mean" the tools and tactics used happen to be.

At some point they must have felt the push back from folks like us, and last time I heard her being interviewed, she got around to the option of guns pretty early in the conversation. But still in hushed tones if you will, seemingly so as not to alarm a single listener.
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Re: Counter argument to statements of fear?

Postby Werz » Thu Jun 05, 2014 10:55 pm

Here is some ugly reality for you:

  • Ideological dogma in the battered women support community runs very deep.
  • Some of that dogma is not without basis. There is actually truth to the high risk that the husband/boyfriend will take the gun away from her.
  • The basis of that truth lies is the sick and twisted relation between the battered woman and her batterer. She will likely not use the gun when she is legally justified in doing so. And he will likely talk her into giving the gun to him.
  • It is extremely risky for a non-LEO gun carrier to come to the immediate defense of a battered woman. As often as not, even if she was nearly beaten to death, she will lie to support her batterer and accuse you of being the aggressor.
Yeah, I know that stuff is hard to believe. It used to be hard for me to believe. Not any more.
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Re: Counter argument to statements of fear?

Postby bearkitty » Sun Aug 17, 2014 4:26 pm

I know this is an older post, but I just have to add a few thoughts:

Everything Werz said is true.

A LOT went into my decision to carry. I had to consider if I really, really believed I could - and would - pull the trigger and take a life to save my own. Firearms training aside....was I mentally equipped and prepared to do it? It's a BIG question to contemplate. It's not one I'd necessarily pose to a woman that's afraid for her life simply because she's afraid for her life.

That said, I think we all have the right to carry. But she has to want to..be ready for any and all outcomes....get training....and feel 100% secure in the decision SHE made. The offer should absolutely be on the table. Just know that not all of them can or will be able to answer the BIG question.
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Re: Counter argument to statements of fear?

Postby Klingon00 » Mon Aug 18, 2014 11:21 am

Werz wrote:Here is some ugly reality for you:

  • Ideological dogma in the battered women support community runs very deep.
  • Some of that dogma is not without basis. There is actually truth to the high risk that the husband/boyfriend will take the gun away from her.
  • The basis of that truth lies is the sick and twisted relation between the battered woman and her batterer. She will likely not use the gun when she is legally justified in doing so. And he will likely talk her into giving the gun to him.
  • It is extremely risky for a non-LEO gun carrier to come to the immediate defense of a battered woman. As often as not, even if she was nearly beaten to death, she will lie to support her batterer and accuse you of being the aggressor.
Yeah, I know that stuff is hard to believe. It used to be hard for me to believe. Not any more.


I've seen some of this through a family friend who's husband is addicted to various substances and he has taken to selling everything of value to feed that addiction. She has a good paying job but lives very poorly because of this. We've tried several times to help her out but she is just not willing to leave him and so the abuse in various forms continues. If she tries to hide anything from her husband he will verbally abuse and keep her awake all night until she relents and gives him what he wants. After seeing the way she will come to his defense, I very much see what can happen in situations like this. None of it makes rational sense but it is a reality for some people.
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Re: Counter argument to statements of fear?

Postby Fonejack54 » Thu Aug 28, 2014 7:30 am

My sister lived through two physically abusive marraiges until her second husband murdered her at age 40 by pushing her down the basement steps. I don't mean to offend anyone, but from reading these posts you really don't have a clue what kind of women you're talking about.
These are not strong willed women. I could write many paragraphs describing their mindset but suffice it to say that their overriding fear of their spouse would NEVER introduce a gun into the equation.
Sure, there are some women that an abuser has found out that he messed with a tiger but they are rare. The woman at the shelter knows these women better than all of you, so trust her instincts. What these women need are brothers, fathers, uncles, cousins to put the fear of God into these cowardice excuses for men and prosecutors unwilling to not charge said relatives. Of, course, those prosecutors don't exist, either.
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Re: Counter argument to statements of fear?

Postby omp » Sat Sep 06, 2014 12:22 pm

I have taken many self defense courses. Most all of them discussed the use of a gun and the danger of a battered woman having her gun used against her.

After putting up with years of abuse from my husband I divorced him. I thought that would put an end to the abuse. No. He stalks me and regularly tries to hack into my email and social media accounts.

I have a TPO, but my ex is a criminal justice major. He is an expert at knowing just what to do to straddle the line of the ORC.

After living in fear for my life for the past several years I met a female sheriff. She said the best thing I should do is get a conceal carry weapon permit. I finally listened.

Women who have experienced domestic violence will never be the same person again.

I will never be the person I was before my ex came in my life. I will be stronger and better.
Safety of my family is my number one priority.
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Re: Counter argument to statements of fear?

Postby Werz » Wed Sep 10, 2014 4:50 pm

omp wrote:I have a TPO, but my ex is a criminal justice major. He is an expert at knowing just what to do to straddle the line of the ORC.

After living in fear for my life for the past several years I met a female sheriff. She said the best thing I should do is get a conceal carry weapon permit. I finally listened.

Please note that an excellent companion to a protection order is a trail camera.
"An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life."
-- Robert A. Heinlein, Beyond This Horizon
"Remember that protecting our gun rights still boils down to keeping a majority in the electorate, and that our daily activities can have the impact of being ambassadors for the gun culture ..."
-- BobK
Open carry is a First Amendment exercise.
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Re: Counter argument to statements of fear?

Postby synack2 » Thu Nov 06, 2014 9:46 pm

I hate to wake up and old thread, but I have volunteered my times at a number of women's shelters in the past. I can't say I am in complete disagreement with the director of that facility. There are a few things you have to understand. These women usually have a lot of issues. There is a lot of emotions, turmoil and serious emotional distress going on. There are fights over children, money, divorces. Men showing up at school and taking the kids and saying they aren't getting them back. A lot of these women come from a very impoverished environment. Not to mention many of them are scared to death of starting life alone and working and raising children alone. If you have worked with these kinds of people before you can relate to what I am saying when I say the "Ability to fight" is cherished and admired above all else. There abusers have often worked for years to alienate them from family and friends and isolate them. Often times these people are quick to react out of anger without thinking on both sides. Often these women either end right back up with their abuser or end up with another abuser.

I would say that maybe putting firearms in the mix during such a turbulent time isn't the best thing. Now if they go through with the program and get out on there own, and are more stable and establishing themselves, I say they should go for it and be armed, but I want calm, rational armed people. A lot of times it take 2-3 years to get some of these women really self sufficient and really on there own and empowered in that way. And only about 5% of them make it to that point.

As a final note, I would add that a lot of the women in these shelters (at least the ones I have worked with) will have things in their past that would prevent them from legally owning a firearm. Not all though.

All that said, I do think that having staff at these sites that are legally armed is a good idea, but many women that work in this field don't/won't see it this way.
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