CCW/guns for ladies

[BB62]

Ladies,

As a male NRA pistol instructor I am trying to get some input on a couple of subjects - firearms for women, and firearm instruction for women (or novices, which of course all women are not!).

Subject #1 - In my classes I use my firearms and those of class attendees for demonstration/examination purposes. I am considering either buying a "womens" (small hands) gun or two, or at least getting pictures and manufacturer names to hand out to the ladies. It would also be helpful to do the same with accessories. Does anyone have any suggestions?

Subject #2 - Instructional method. Does anyone have any suggestions on how to best relay information regarding guns, how they work, differences, etc.? I had one woman tell me that she was not "prepared" to handle a firearm during our first 4 hour session (prompting me to wonder just what she thought the course was all about). I would appreciate any input anyone might have, especially as it relates to the "best" way to reach women, since sometimes what men say and women hear (and vice versa) are two different things!

Thanks much,
BB62

Edited to fix posting error - Cable

[Mustang380gal]

First of all, 'preparing' to handle a firearm is no different than for a man. It is time on on the range. I tend to want my husband to remind me more often and want him to watch me closely because I don't shoot very often. I want him to catch me before I make a mistake. If I shot more, this may not be an issue. If a woman is a new shooter, she might appreciate a smaller coach/student ratio.

My husband taught me to shoot by taking me to woods on his parents' property, explaining the safety rules, and letting me have at it. He watched carefully. I did not know mechanics of the gun, other than watch out the hammer will bite. I don't much care how, so much as that it does what is supposed to. As I shot, hubby explained what caliber meant, what kind of a gun I was shooting. It was all explained as I was doing it. He did teach me to aim properly, but I found I shoot better front sight press aiming instead of lining up front and rear sights, hold your breath and press. I take too long that way, and my arm tires holding it so long. Then my aim drops.

The other part of preparedness is mental. I decided that I could more easily live with myself if I had to kill a BG than if I allowed a BG to kill my children. The is something that I don't know if it can be sufficiently done in class, because it is soul-searching, and takes time.

I don't have any problem shooting a 1911A1. That's the first handgun my husband had me shoot. Now my .380 seems so tiny in comparison. I used a Detonics .45 ACP for my CCW class. My husband told me I was shooting as well as or better than most of the men, but I was too busy to notice. So, for myself, I wouldn't care if an instructor told me this was a ladies gun. I'd show him my husband's Detonics and say,"This is an asexual gun, and will work for both." Having smaller guns for smaller hands, both men and women, might not be a bad idea, but don't call them ladies guns. I don't especially want a ladies gun.

The big issue that is different for us is our physical structure, and concealment. Talking holster issues and having some to try would be helpful. Also, concealment wearing dresses and skirts is challenging, so ideas about that would be nice. I don't know if that would be covered in pistol classes or not. The only class I have had has been CCW.

I hope this helps. My CCW class was mostly men, with only one or two other women. I've read in NRA magazines that many women like women only classes, but that wasn't an option for me. I have only been shooting with men, so I wouldn't know whether it would be better.

Linda

[SMMAssociates]

BB62:

Interesting....

About 30 years ago, give or take, I was a guest instructor at a YSU Firearms class. Certification? we don't need no steenkin certification . But I was commissioned at the time and the instructor, ex-FBI, was a friend.

One of the students was a little bitty girl. Rather than the M10HB's the school was using, the instructor gave her a stainless "Chief's Special". She couldn't hit the backstop with it.... (I tried too - the gun hadn't been lubricated lately, and just wasn't going to shoot for anybody.)

One of the guys brought an old Colt "Official Police" (kind of a 4" version of their 5-shot snubbies), and we tried that. Nada....

Finally (with some begging from the little girl), we gave her one of the M10's. She shot as well as the guys....

Guess the point is to work with the gals to match method of carry and concealment issues with available hardware rather than automatically going with "something small". It's much harder for a newbie to get the hang of the little guns, so they should be avoided in favor of larger ones. Women have fewer options (I don't recommend off-body carry), and will want to stick with smaller guns, but we don't want to get carried away.

S&W used to make a 9mm called "LadySmith" or some such. 3913, I think. I think it's been rebadged or the name taken for something else, but it was a decent mid-sized gun. About the size of a PPK/S, actually. Everybody's got something like that.

I started my daughter (she's quite petite) on a fairly large .22 target pistol (S&W M22A, with the BIG target grips). She got bored with that pretty quickly and fell in love with a 6" M19 Combat Magnum, and later my old M39 9mm semi. She's only 19, so a CHL is out for now, and she doesn't like my PPK/S much - no idea what we'll choose if she wants to go that way, but she's confident, and can handle my 1911's, although she prefers the 9's....

Regards,

[TunnelRat]

I don't have any problem shooting a 1911A1. That's the first handgun my husband had me shoot. Now my .380 seems so tiny in comparison.

I started my pre-teen daughters on a single action .22 caliber Colt Frontier Scout. It had nearly no noticeable recoil at all.

Once they got the hang of looking for the front sight and squeezing the trigger, we moved on to my 9mm Hi-Power and my .45acp M1911. They liked the idea of being able to load a bunch of rounds all at once instead of having to deal with the one cylinder at a time of the single action revolver.

The 1911 has a naturally narrow grip that fit their hands well and the girls very much enjoyed shooting it. I didn't tell them that a .45 has a lot of recoil, so they didn't know that they were supposed to be afraid of it or bothered by it. They just shot it as though it were a .22!

Next we tried my Hi-Power. It also has slim grips: I had long ago replaced the big, clunky, factory original, walnut grips with a pair of extra thin Navridex grips. Eventually, both my girls prefer the Hi-Power: the grips are small enough for them and the 9mm doesn't "jump" as much as the .45acp.

Lotsa times we try to let our young ladies shoot with a little gun, thinking they have little hands. But little guns tend to have a more noticeable "kick" than larger guns. The laws of physics apply to both genders. It may be wiser to use a larger firearm that has less of a kick, especially when just starting to learn.

When I was teaching one of my daughters-in-law to shoot, she complained about the "kick" of the little J-frame Smith she was using. So I switched her to my Ruger Blackhawk, using .38 specials. The big, single action Ruger weighs enough that the recoil from the very light .38's I gave her was negligible and she was able to concentrate on her front sight and trigger squeeze.

[Linda]

Subject #1 - In my classes I use my firearms and those of class attendees for demonstration/examination purposes. I am considering either buying a "womens" (small hands) gun or two, or at least getting pictures and manufacturer names to hand out to the ladies. It would also be helpful to do the same with accessories. Does anyone have any suggestions?

Subject #2 - Instructional method. Does anyone have any suggestions on how to best relay information regarding guns, how they work, differences, etc.? I had one woman tell me that she was not "prepared" to handle a firearm during our first 4 hour session (prompting me to wonder just what she thought the course was all about). I would appreciate any input anyone might have, especially as it relates to the "best" way to reach women, since sometimes what men say and women hear (and vice versa) are two different things!

HI JEFF

Here's my thoughts on your guestions....,

First off, I think that you need to think about...,what kind of women are getting their CCW's? Unless she's been a "victim", I think that the majority of the women are going to be strong type A personalities! I really can't imagine that there are many type B, introverted, shy, layed back type of ladies getting their CHL's. With that said, type A's are not going to want to be singled out in your classes. Absolutely, if she needs help, jump in there, especially those who have NO weapons experience, although my personal opinion is, that everyone taking a CCW class should have prior experience, but that's just my opinion. DON'T buy no girlie guns!!! We don't want to shoot no darn girl guns!!! I think anyone should be able to be coordinated enough to pick up any gun and get a good grasp on it, regardless of it's size. You could have some manufacturer info on hand for those petite types, so they know there's alternatives available, but I would not suggest you spend your $$$ on girlie guns. Perhaps during the point in your class that you are discussing different calibers, that would be a good time to interject that there are smaller gripped guns avail.

As far as accessories for women....,we've got a real challenge on our hands. I don't wear dresses and skirts, so I have NO idea how one would carry in that situation. Seems pretty much impossible, so that's why I wear jeans/slacks/shorts-all with pockets. I bought one of the purses, but have only put my gun in it a couple times. If the BG takes my purse, he now has my gun! I have a fanny pack, but would only use that when I'm out for a walk or biking. Fanny packs just aren't business like! I have a jackass shoulder holster. It's OK in the winter under my winter coat, but otherwise I look like a football player. And too, with that, I'm stuck not being able to take my coat off! I need 2 hands to get my gun out of it also. The leather holsters for belts stick out too far. My way of carrying is in an Uncle Mike's in the pant holster. It's soft, low profile, and slides nicely into my front right pocket. I do shop for deep pockets on pants now. I also carry it clipped to the top of my pants. With a shirt over a shirt, no one knows the better. For me, those 2 ways are my choice in carrying, and should work for most all women.

As far as your instructional methods..., at New Albany Shooting Range, right at the beginning of the 1st class, they discussed how your life is going to change if you ever have to shoot someone. How your family, your neighbors, your friends will view you after that, even though it was in self defense. Are you willing to shoot someone? If not, you should not get your CCW. It was a very thought provoking, sombering thing to think about, but it is reality. I thought it was a VERY GOOD thing to put out there for everyone to think about.

We went into the different caliber of weapons. I don't think that you should talk about recoil. Let them experience it during the range times. If they perceive that a .45, etc. is really going to kick, they will "anticipate" it. It needs to be felt, but not feared. Do explain what the different caliber bullets will do. I found that extremely interesting. Actually examples like John did at Fun & Gun was *fun*!

If you're teaching an all women class, honestly, we don't care about the mechanicals of the gun anymore than we do about the mechanicals of our cars. My husband cleans my gun for me. I told him that's why I keep him around! It makes him feel needed and important!!!

I don't know if you have anyone else help you teach your classes or not. We had a woman along w/ 2 guys. She was awesome, and the guys in the class concured on that too! On the last day of classes after lunch, all 3 of them come in and all had mulitple guns concealed in different places on their bodies. That was very impressive to see all the places one can stick a gun!!!

As far as the lady who wasn't "prepared" to handle a gun.....,I don't know, that just leaves me speechless! What a frickin' idiot! Was she sent in as a media undercover? You must have laughed outloud at her!

One last little tidbit...,the one about the macho guy in class. We all had guns on our desks, and they had us practicing pointing, siting, etc. All along telling everyone to "Keep your finger OFF the triggers"!!!! Yep, we heard it....,"CLICK"! Could have heard a pin drop in that room, just prior to him getting his scathing commentary from the instructors!

Have a great day Jeff!

[Mad Duck]

First get the book Teaching Women to Shoot, by Vicki Farnam

I keep a couple of Browning Buck Marks for students, the controls are
similar to many centerfires.

Encourge them to do some web surfing, I give every student a resource
guide of gun makers, holster companies, etc.

Ladies seem to lean towards fanny pack type carry, some like shoulder holsters, remember to point out that many companies make belts & holsters for womens contours.

I also encourge all students not to buy a gun to take the class, buy one afterwards when they have more knowledge. Don't let the gunshop sell you a gun, buy the gun that fits best.

(a example yesterday I was aiding an Instructor with rangetime, the lady in the class was about 4'7'' maybe 80lbs soaking wet, & the guy at the gunshop sold her a .357 Taurus J frame hammerless, she could'nt even pull the trigger all the way. But she did ok with the 22. I think the gunshops would in the long run sell more guns, if they would refer new shooters to a trainer, before the purchase, instead of just selling a 38/357 stubbie, that they can't shoot.)

[BB62]

I'm sorry I haven't posted my deep appreciation (and I mean that) for all of your observations and suggestions - Duck, Linda, Tom, Mustangal - all of you.

Right now I am having a dearth of interest in my classes, and am just struggling to fill them - but today I have just put a "Women's Only" class on my schedule - we'll see what happens. As some have said, some women want a coccoon, and some don't.

Either way, I have to re-read the input here and do some more research from the resources offered.

Thanks again SO MUCH.


BB62

[Jeremiahm]

I just got done with a class with six women in it. It was a riot. I had a really good time teaching that one. I have had all but one of my classes have a woman in it. I have learned lots by teaching them.

First thing, make sure everyone knows that the back sight is on the safe end of the gun and the front sight is on the dangerous end. I had one woman that was shooting a little low in a class. Well, I told her to raise the front sight a little higher. She then proceeded to shoot even lower. So, I told her again. That shot went into the dirt. Well, she was raising the back sight on the gun as she aimed. Her logic was that the back sight was in front of her, and the front sight was behind that one while she aimed at the target. It's sound logic, but of course, backwards.

Next, some women have very, very small hands. This is a major hurdle, and it's hard to get around. One of the biggest problems I see with very small hands is that they tend to hold the gun way to low. This in turn gives the gun a huge mechanical advantage to work on the shooter and the gun flips more at the shot. Make sure they get them small hands up higher to shorten up the lever between the hands and the bore axis so they can put more leverage on their side.

Bigger guns are easier to shoot than tiny guns. Some women out there relate small guns with small recoil, it's just not the case. A SW19 with about a four inch barrel and soft rubber grips makes a pretty good shooter for someone with small hands, like a women. It doesn't conceal worth a darn, but everything is a trade off.

Just my .02.

Jeremiah

[Engineer Bill]

I must admit that the ladies only classes are fun, they usually ask so many good questions that it really kept me at my best. I did do a couple of spouses class too and one of the couples in one of the classes, well lets put it this way, they were very competitive.

Bill

[Rach212]

I wanted to comment on Linda's post

]

"Unless she's been a "victim", I think that the majority of the women are going to be strong type A personalities! I really can't imagine that there are many type B, introverted, shy, layed back type of ladies getting their CHL's. quote]

Hi Linda
I am more of the type B personality. I have never been a victim. Although I am very laid back and shy I would not hesitate to defend my family, friends, myself, or others should the need to do so arise . I hope and pray that it never does, but if so I want to be prepared. I guess that I'm in the minority here but that's alright. I have always prided myself on being different!


I have only recently entered the world of gun ownership. Last year when my Father died, my boyfriend J thought that the intense concentration of target shooting would help me through some of my grief. It did help quite a lot. We started with an air rifle. It didn't take long for me to want more. I purchased a Remington 597 HB .22 Win Mag Rifle. I love it! I have only shot with other women once at a Women in The Outdoors event last summer during a class on Handgun Basics. I usually shoot with my boyfriend and his friends. So taking a class with men wouldn't bother me in the least.


Then I began to want a pistol and a permit to carry. I am now the proud owner of a Bersa .380. I also want a Browning Hi Power 9mm among other things!!! My wish list just keeps growing. I am currently looking for a CCW class that will fit with my schedule. I work on Saturdays and most classes are Sat-Sun. But I am determined to take a class before the end of April whether it fits with my schedule or not.

[Mad Duck]

Browning High Power, now your talking!

[tjeffries]

Good Job Rach12

Oh, and welcome to the club

[Jronjakoh]

AAAWWW Give the ladies a .22 or a BB gun. That will make em happy!!

[Starshine]

...but harder to conceal.

So, my take is, bring as much variety as possible to CHL training classes, no matter whether it is men or women you're teaching. It's very helpful to handle a variety of weapons as you wrestle with the question of packing light and still having something that you can reliably shoot!

My problem is not small hands. It is weak fingers! I can't handle an 8- or 10-lb trigger pull, and my fingers are so long that the problem gets worse as the pistol gets smaller.

So...I dunno, I guess my perfect weapon for concealment will be something with a short barrel, but a standard sized grip and a light trigger pull.

I've done very well shooting a smallish Glock with a light trigger pull, but I hope to find a revolver with a similar action--I'd prefer not to have shell casings bouncing all over the place. I find that very distracting. I have yet to find "the one." I wonder if such a beast exists?

Well, enough rambling for one day.

Sara.

[Linda]

AAAWWW Give the ladies a .22 or a BB gun. That will make em happy!!

How insulting was that statement!

PFFF....,if it's not a .45, it's not worth carrying!