Felons and firearms in the same house

Use this forum to post your experience with encounters with law enforcement, criminals, or other encounters as a result of your firearm or potential to be carrying one.

Moderators: Chuck, Mustang380gal, Coordinators, Moderators

Post Reply
walnut red
Posts: 1265
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2007 7:59 am
Location: Morrow County

Felons and firearms in the same house

Post by walnut red »

One of my cousins will be getting out of prison next year after serving a sentence for white collar crime. My wife suggested that we offer him a place to stay for a while until he gets back on his feet. Is that even an option with firearms in the house?
User avatar
JediSkipdogg
Posts: 10257
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2008 3:03 pm
Location: Batavia
Contact:

Re: Felons and firearms in the same house

Post by JediSkipdogg »

Depends on the rules of his parole. Keep in mind it also opens you up to losing your 4th Amendment right for your residence. Pretty much his parole officer can say they want to verify if there are firearms in the house and you cannot deny them entry. Well, you can, but then your cousin goes back to prison.
Carrying Concealed Handguns - Signage Answers

Ohio Concealed Carry Classes in S/W Ohio
http://www.ProShootersTraining.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I am not a lawyer. My answers are based on research, knowledge, and are generally backed up with facts, the Ohio Revised Code, or the United States Code.
mreising
Posts: 6274
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 8:07 pm
Location: Warren County

Re: Felons and firearms in the same house

Post by mreising »

I would tell him that you are sorry he made some poor choices in life, but you will not be able to accommodate him in your house.
The tyrant will always find a pretext for his tyranny

Mark
NRA Training Counselor-Rifle, Pistol, Shotgun, Reloading, Personal Protection in the Home, Personal Protection Outside the Home, Home Firearms Safety, Chief RSO. NRA Endowment Life member.
User avatar
Stryker74
OFCC Member
OFCC Member
Posts: 1470
Joined: Wed Mar 06, 2013 8:15 pm
Location: Grove City, Ohio

Re: Felons and firearms in the same house

Post by Stryker74 »

I have a family member who is a felon. I don't allow him in my house at all.

Sorry - he made his choices, so I have made mine as well.
Aaron

NRA Life Endowment Member
NRA Certified Instructor - Pistol, Refuse To Be A Victim
NRA Range Safety Officer
Kentucky CCDW Certified Instructor



Want to become more active with OFCC, and the fight for your rights? Click the link to find out how!
http://ohioccwforums.org/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=64852" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
gilly32
OFCC Patron Member
OFCC Patron Member
Posts: 780
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2005 6:38 am
Location: Medina

Re: Felons and firearms in the same house

Post by gilly32 »

What is the actual law regarding felons and the presence of firearms in a building where they don't reside? Is it all a matter of access? Would firearms locked in a safe be an issue? Can I hire a convicted felon to work at my business and still legally carry my firearm?

Is there a section of the ORC where this is spelled out?
"The right to keep and bear arms is rooted in both self-defense and insurance against government’s propensity toward tyranny. The right pre-existed the Constitution. Thus, the Second Amendment is not its source. The right to keep and bear arms is natural and inalienable; the Second Amendment protects it, and Congress has no legitimate power to restrict it." - Senator John Cornyn (R., Tex.), as reported in the National Review on July 4, 2016

Burma Shave
User avatar
JustaShooter
OFCC Coordinator
OFCC Coordinator
Posts: 5800
Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2013 3:08 pm
Location: Akron/Canton Area

Re: Felons and firearms in the same house

Post by JustaShooter »

gilly32 wrote:What is the actual law regarding felons and the presence of firearms in a building where they don't reside? Is it all a matter of access? Would firearms locked in a safe be an issue? Can I hire a convicted felon to work at my business and still legally carry my firearm?

Is there a section of the ORC where this is spelled out?
Spelled out as clearly as mud is more like it. There is no law I can find that says they can't be in a building where there are firearms present, whether or not they reside there. Here are the two sections of the ORC I was able to find:

http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2923.13" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
2923.13 Having weapons while under disability.

(A) Unless relieved from disability under operation of law or legal process, no person shall knowingly acquire, have, carry, or use any firearm or dangerous ordnance, if any of the following apply:

(1) The person is a fugitive from justice.

(2) The person is under indictment for or has been convicted of any felony offense of violence or has been adjudicated a delinquent child for the commission of an offense that, if committed by an adult, would have been a felony offense of violence.

(3) The person is under indictment for or has been convicted of any felony offense involving the illegal possession, use, sale, administration, distribution, or trafficking in any drug of abuse or has been adjudicated a delinquent child for the commission of an offense that, if committed by an adult, would have been a felony offense involving the illegal possession, use, sale, administration, distribution, or trafficking in any drug of abuse.
http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2923.20v1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
2923.20 Unlawful transaction in weapons.

(A) No person shall:

(1) Recklessly sell, lend, give, or furnish any firearm to any person prohibited by section 2923.13 or 2923.15 of the Revised Code from acquiring or using any firearm, or recklessly sell, lend, give, or furnish any dangerous ordnance to any person prohibited by section 2923.13, 2923.15, or 2923.17 of the Revised Code from acquiring or using any dangerous ordnance;
So it looks to me like it really is about possession and access - they can't have them, you can't give them one, nor can you "Recklessly ... furnish" one to them - I would think that failing to lock up any firearms that are not under your direct control when they are (or even might) be there would be reckless. I thought the same thing applied to ammunition, but I don't see that in these sections of Ohio law so that might be a Federal restriction, I don't know.

Edit: Yes, the ammunition prohibition is in Federal law, and the Federal law regarding firearms, ammunition and prohibited persons looks to be about possession and access as well.
Christian, Husband, Father
NRA Life Member
NRA Certified Range Safety Officer
NRA Certified Pistol & Rifle Instructor

Want to become more active with OFCC and help fight for your rights? Click Here!
troy bilt
OFCC Patron Member
OFCC Patron Member
Posts: 312
Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2012 7:53 pm
Location: Norwalk
Contact:

Re: Felons and firearms in the same house

Post by troy bilt »

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictiona ... possession" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Constructive Possession

Constructive possession is a legal theory used to extend possession to situations where a person has no hands-on custody of an object. Most courts say that constructive possession, also sometimes called "possession in law," exists where a person has knowledge of an object plus the ability to control the object, even if the person has no physical contact with it (United States v. Derose, 74 F.3d 1177 [11th Cir. 1996]). For example, people often keep important papers and other valuable items in a bank safety deposit box. Although they do not have actual physical custody of these items, they do have knowledge of the items and the ability to exercise control over them. Thus, under the doctrine of constructive possession, they are still considered in possession of the contents of their safety deposit box. Constructive possession is frequently used in cases involving criminal possession.

I looked into this for a friend some time ago. From what I remember even if you have all your guns in a safe the felon can be charged with possession if he knows where the key is, and can get to it.
I have struggled with dyslexia my entire life. I know it's spelled wrong but thanks for pointing it out.
User avatar
schmieg
OFCC Coordinator
OFCC Coordinator
Posts: 5751
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 11:11 pm
Location: Madeira, Ohio

Re: Felons and firearms in the same house

Post by schmieg »

From State v. Davis, 2016 Ohio 7964 (8th District):

In the instant matter, Davis was convicted of having weapons while under disability, in violation of R.C. 923.13(A)(2), which provides

"nless relieved from disability under operation of law or legal process, no person shall knowingly acquire, have, carry, or use any firearm or dangerous ordnance, if * * * [t]he person is under indictment for or has been convicted of any felony offense of violence or has been adjudicated a delinquent child for the commission of an offense that, if committed by an adult, would have been a felony offense of violence."

In State v. Adams, 8th Dist. Cuyahoga No. 93513, 2010-Ohio-4478, this court held that in order to “have” a firearm or dangerous ordnance within the meaning of R.C. 2923.13, an individual must either actually or constructively possess it.
Id. at ¶ 19, citing State v. Hardy, 60 Ohio App.2d 325, 327, 397 N.E.2d 773 (8th Dist.1978). “The issue of whether a person charged with having weapons while under disability knowingly acquired, had, carried, or used any firearm or dangerous ordnance ‘is to be determined from all the attendant facts and circumstances available.’” State v. Bray, 8th Dist. Cuyahoga No. 92619, 2009-Ohio-6461, ¶ 21, quoting State v. Teamer, 82 Ohio St.3d 490, 492, 696 N.E.2d 1049 (1998).

Possession may be actual or constructive.

Constructive possession may * * * be inferred when a person has dominion or control over the premises upon which the object in question is found and knows that the object is on those premises. State v. Scalf (1998), 126 Ohio App.3d 614, 710 N.E.2d 1206. Furthermore, a person may knowingly possess or control property belonging to another; the state need not establish ownership to prove constructive possession. See State v. Robinson, 8th Dist. [Cuyahoga] No. 90751, 2008-Ohio-5580. Bray at ¶ 23. Ownership does not need to be proven, and constructive possession may be established by circumstantial evidence. State v. Blue, 9th Dist. Lorain No. 10CA009765, 2011-Ohio-511, ¶ 17.
-- Mike

"The smallest minority on earth is the individual. Those who deny individual rights cannot claim to be defenders of minorities." - Ayn Rand
walnut red
Posts: 1265
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2007 7:59 am
Location: Morrow County

Re: Felons and firearms in the same house

Post by walnut red »

Still a little muddy to me.

2923.13 Having weapons while under disability.

(A) Unless relieved from disability under operation of law or legal process, no person shall knowingly acquire, have, carry, or use any firearm or dangerous ordnance, if any of the following apply:

(1) The person is a fugitive from justice.

Not a fugitive, convicted and served his time.

(2) The person is under indictment for or has been convicted of any felony offense of violence or has been adjudicated a delinquent child for the commission of an offense that, if committed by an adult, would have been a felony offense of violence.

Not a violent offence, white collar. I'd be more concerned about access to a computer than a firearm.

(3) The person is under indictment for or has been convicted of any felony offense involving the illegal possession, use, sale, administration, distribution, or trafficking in any drug of abuse or has been adjudicated a delinquent child for the commission of an offense that, if committed by an adult, would have been a felony offense involving the illegal possession, use, sale, administration, distribution, or trafficking in any drug of abuse.

Felony did not involve illegal substances in any way.

So would his parole office or my county prosecutor be the one to talk to about an exact interpretation?
User avatar
JustaShooter
OFCC Coordinator
OFCC Coordinator
Posts: 5800
Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2013 3:08 pm
Location: Akron/Canton Area

Re: Felons and firearms in the same house

Post by JustaShooter »

walnut red wrote:Still a little muddy to me.

2923.13 Having weapons while under disability.

(A) Unless relieved from disability under operation of law or legal process, no person shall knowingly acquire, have, carry, or use any firearm or dangerous ordnance, if any of the following apply:

(1) The person is a fugitive from justice.

Not a fugitive, convicted and served his time.

(2) The person is under indictment for or has been convicted of any felony offense of violence or has been adjudicated a delinquent child for the commission of an offense that, if committed by an adult, would have been a felony offense of violence.

Not a violent offence, white collar. I'd be more concerned about access to a computer than a firearm.

(3) The person is under indictment for or has been convicted of any felony offense involving the illegal possession, use, sale, administration, distribution, or trafficking in any drug of abuse or has been adjudicated a delinquent child for the commission of an offense that, if committed by an adult, would have been a felony offense involving the illegal possession, use, sale, administration, distribution, or trafficking in any drug of abuse.

Felony did not involve illegal substances in any way.

So would his parole office or my county prosecutor be the one to talk to about an exact interpretation?
In this case, the prohibition is at the Federal level. See https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/922" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; section (g):
(g) It shall be unlawful for any person—
(1) who has been convicted in any court of, a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year;
(2) who is a fugitive from justice;
(3) who is an unlawful user of or addicted to any controlled substance (as defined in section 102 of the Controlled Substances Act (21 U.S.C. 802));
(4) who has been adjudicated as a mental defective or who has been committed to a mental institution;
(5) who, being an alien—
(A) is illegally or unlawfully in the United States; or
(B) except as provided in subsection (y)(2), has been admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa (as that term is defined in section 101(a)(26) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1101(a)(26)));
(6) who has been discharged from the Armed Forces under dishonorable conditions;
(7) who, having been a citizen of the United States, has renounced his citizenship;
(8) who is subject to a court order that—
(A) was issued after a hearing of which such person received actual notice, and at which such person had an opportunity to participate;
(B) restrains such person from harassing, stalking, or threatening an intimate partner of such person or child of such intimate partner or person, or engaging in other conduct that would place an intimate partner in reasonable fear of bodily injury to the partner or child; and
(C)
(i) includes a finding that such person represents a credible threat to the physical safety of such intimate partner or child; or
(ii) by its terms explicitly prohibits the use, attempted use, or threatened use of physical force against such intimate partner or child that would reasonably be expected to cause bodily injury; or
(9) who has been convicted in any court of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence,
to ship or transport in interstate or foreign commerce, or possess in or affecting commerce, any firearm or ammunition; or to receive any firearm or ammunition which has been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce.
Federal law does not distinguish between violent and non-violent felonies - in fact, it doesn't even specify felonies, simply "a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year" - note that this says "punishable", not "sentenced to" so if you *could* be sentenced to more than a year, the crime disqualifies the offender from possessing firearms or ammunition.

So, although they might not be prohibited under Ohio law, they can still be prohibited under Federal law, which appears to be the case here.
Christian, Husband, Father
NRA Life Member
NRA Certified Range Safety Officer
NRA Certified Pistol & Rifle Instructor

Want to become more active with OFCC and help fight for your rights? Click Here!
walnut red
Posts: 1265
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2007 7:59 am
Location: Morrow County

Re: Felons and firearms in the same house

Post by walnut red »

Thanks, Federal is much clearer in this case.
User avatar
Werz
OFCC Patron Member
OFCC Patron Member
Posts: 5506
Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 2:37 am

Re: Felons and firearms in the same house

Post by Werz »

JediSkipdogg wrote:Depends on the rules of his parole. Keep in mind it also opens you up to losing your 4th Amendment right for your residence. Pretty much his parole officer can say they want to verify if there are firearms in the house and you cannot deny them entry. Well, you can, but then your cousin goes back to prison.
Parole for most felony offenses has not existed since 1996. Post-release control supervision is a possibility, but that is optional. I don't know what type of "white collar crime" is being referred to, but I'm guessing that post-release control is less than likely. Simply put, continued supervision after release is far from a foregone conclusion.
"An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life."
-- Robert A. Heinlein, Beyond This Horizon
"Remember that protecting our gun rights still boils down to keeping a majority in the electorate, and that our daily activities can have the impact of being ambassadors for the gun culture ..."
-- BobK
Open carry is a First Amendment exercise.
Thanlon23
Posts: 24
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2017 8:22 pm
Location: Cleveland, OH

Re: Felons and firearms in the same house

Post by Thanlon23 »

I would talk to a Parole Officer to find out, they would probably know best. Find out before he gets out so he knows if he has to make other arrangements.
Post Reply