Encounter with Sheriff deputies at Stark County Fair today

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Re: Encounter with Sheriff deputies at Stark County Fair tod

Postby Cruiser » Tue Sep 06, 2016 3:51 pm

JustaShooter wrote:
Wash Doc wrote:If I'm reading this right signage of generic origin has as much authority as a unicorn farting rainbows?
I see a sign I automatically back off as I do my best to avoid problems.


On a business or other private property, the sign can be anything that conveys the intent of not allowing you to be armed on the property. It just has to be posted in a conspicuous location, and if you saw it, it must have been conspicuous enough so yes, you should back off and not enter while armed.

For government entities, the format and wording are spelled out in the Ohio Revised Code.

The problem here is that the Ohio Revised Code specifically says that political subdivisions of the state cannot enact laws or rules regarding possession of firearms that are more restrictive than what is spelled out in the ORC, and the ORC says you can't post public land, parks, etc - and the fairgrounds are for the most part (and Stark County Fairgrounds *are*) public property and are run fair boards that are a political subdivision of the state, so they *cannot* post the fairgrounds.

The reason these particular signs anger me is that they were *intentionally* posted after OFCC got the original signs taken down a few years ago. This wasn't a case of missing a sign or forgetting about that entrance, no, the metal signs are down and they decided to post these new ones even though they knew or should have known it wasn't allowed.

Possibly a new member on the Fair Board is responsible?
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Re: Encounter with Sheriff deputies at Stark County Fair tod

Postby Mustang380gal » Tue Sep 06, 2016 3:57 pm

I deleted several emails by one poster by his request, and removed his quotes from other posts. As most of you know, in cases like this, organizations who do not usually read here will read our posts. The deletions were done to keep that from happening.
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Re: Encounter with Sheriff deputies at Stark County Fair tod

Postby Werz » Tue Sep 06, 2016 6:59 pm

I tried to read your post closely, and please correct me if I'm wrong, but I did not see any statement that the sheriff's deputies told you that it was unlawful for you to openly carry a firearm, or that it was in violation of the fair's rules. Am I correct?

The reason I ask is because I am seeing more and more "social engineering" encounters with law enforcement officers (and other "persons in charge"), who do not tell you it is illegal for you to be openly carrying a handgun, nor do they tell you that it is contrary to the rules of the venue. They simply tell you that it is making people "uncomfortable," and you wouldn't want folks to feel uncomfortable, right? And think of the children, yes? According to the deputy, that technique seems to have worked on another attendee at the fair.

Don't fall for that crap. Part of it is engineered by anti-gun folks who complain to law enforcement whenever they see someone openly carrying a firearm, even if it's legal, and even if they know it's legal. The trick is to make the law enforcement officer feel like he or she must "do something" to keep the concerned citizen happy. The law enforcement officer will respond to keep peace and prevent the complaining party from claiming that "he/she didn't do anything, and my children and I were scared to death!"

Be polite, but stand up for your rights.
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Re: Encounter with Sheriff deputies at Stark County Fair tod

Postby JustaShooter » Tue Sep 06, 2016 7:47 pm

Werz wrote:I tried to read your post closely, and please correct me if I'm wrong, but I did not see any statement that the sheriff's deputies told you that it was unlawful for you to openly carry a firearm, or that it was in violation of the fair's rules. Am I correct?


Correct.

Werz wrote:The reason I ask is because I am seeing more and more "social engineering" encounters with law enforcement officers (and other "persons in charge"), who do not tell you it is illegal for you to be openly carrying a handgun, nor do they tell you that it is contrary to the rules of the venue. They simply tell you that it is making people "uncomfortable," and you wouldn't want folks to feel uncomfortable, right? And think of the children, yes? According to the deputy, that technique seems to have worked on another attendee at the fair.


That is exactly what it was - and I'm sure it works on most people. They were extremely careful in their choice of words and phrasing, and repeated that they "wouldn't want to take our rights away" and such, along with wording similar to what you posted. I mean, I was *very* uncomfortable with the encounter and had a hard time getting to the point of declining their strongly worded "request" to leave and disarm and I have a pretty good handle on that part of the law and my rights. I can imagine if my wife were by herself even though I've educated her pretty well, or worse someone who was a relative novice at such things.

Werz wrote:Don't fall for that crap.


I didn't - and thankfully, my wife knew enough to involve me immediately.

Werz wrote:Part of it is engineered by anti-gun folks who complain to law enforcement whenever they see someone openly carrying a firearm, even if it's legal, and even if they know it's legal. The trick is to make the law enforcement officer feel like he or she must "do something" to keep the concerned citizen happy. The law enforcement officer will respond to keep peace and prevent the complaining party from claiming that "he/she didn't do anything, and my children and I were scared to death!"

Be polite, but stand up for your rights.


I think I managed the first part. I know I managed the second. :mrgreen:
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Re: Encounter with Sheriff deputies at Stark County Fair tod

Postby gfrlaser » Mon Sep 12, 2016 9:04 am

"LEOs really don't like open carry, do they?"

They don't???
I am an open carrier in the Centerville and surround areas. Never have I had a 'bad' encounter with LEO's in the many years I have had openly carrying. In fact, quite the opposite. I also go to county fairs, have been to at least 30 festivals this summer, all with open carry. In each and every case where an LEO obviously spotted my LC9, the reaction was positive. Some gave a thumbs up others simply nodding my way. Not once an encounter that was negative. Some walk up and ask the model I carry. Just last week in Indian Lake a County Sheriff looked my way, approached me and said "I like your style." Now that's what I call positive interaction.

Maybe I am just fortunate or perhaps it's because I am an older guy with graying hair. Don't know. All I can do is go by my experiences and give Ohio LEO's a thumbs up as far as their concerns to open carry in S.W. Ohio.
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Re: Encounter with Sheriff deputies at Stark County Fair tod

Postby JustaShooter » Mon Sep 12, 2016 9:18 am

gfrlaser wrote:"LEOs really don't like open carry, do they?"

They don't???
I am an open carrier in the Centerville and surround areas. Never have I had a 'bad' encounter with LEO's in the many years I have had openly carrying. In fact, quite the opposite. I also go to county fairs, have been to at least 30 festivals this summer, all with open carry. In each and every case where an LEO obviously spotted my LC9, the reaction was positive. Some gave a thumbs up others simply nodding my way. Not once an encounter that was negative. Some walk up and ask the model I carry. Just last week in Indian Lake a County Sheriff looked my way, approached me and said "I like your style." Now that's what I call positive interaction.

Maybe I am just fortunate or perhaps it's because I am an older guy with graying hair. Don't know. All I can do is go by my experiences and give Ohio LEO's a thumbs up as far as their concerns to open carry in S.W. Ohio.

As an older guy with greying hair and a grey beard as well, I don't think that is what makes the difference. I suspect it has more to do with me being in the NE part of the state - but even when discussing open carry with LEOs from other parts of the state (and even other states), although they may recognize the right, they unanimously expressed their dislike for it.
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Re: Encounter with Sheriff deputies at Stark County Fair tod

Postby Brian D. » Mon Sep 12, 2016 12:38 pm

gfrlaser wrote:"LEOs really don't like open carry, do they?"

They don't???
I am an open carrier in the Centerville and surround areas. Never have I had a 'bad' encounter with LEO's in the many years I have had openly carrying. In fact, quite the opposite. I also go to county fairs, have been to at least 30 festivals this summer, all with open carry. In each and every case where an LEO obviously spotted my LC9, the reaction was positive. Some gave a thumbs up others simply nodding my way. Not once an encounter that was negative. Some walk up and ask the model I carry. Just last week in Indian Lake a County Sheriff looked my way, approached me and said "I like your style." Now that's what I call positive interaction.

Maybe I am just fortunate or perhaps it's because I am an older guy with graying hair. Don't know. All I can do is go by my experiences and give Ohio LEO's a thumbs up as far as their concerns to open carry in S.W. Ohio.


We've had first hand reports about particular officers in Miamisburg that have leaned on OCers pretty hard. I won't go into specifics but it's not because these officers don't know the laws.

For those not aware, Miamisburg is the next town east of Centerville.
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Re: Encounter with Sheriff deputies at Stark County Fair tod

Postby gfrlaser » Tue Sep 13, 2016 11:33 am

I guess I will have to mosey on over to Miamisburg more often. Though, I am often there.
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Re: Encounter with Sheriff deputies at Stark County Fair tod

Postby SeanC » Tue Sep 13, 2016 1:10 pm

JustaShooter wrote:So, had my first encounter with LEOs while armed today.

As is our custom, Mrs. JustaShooter and I attended the Stark County Fair today. As we frequently do, we were openly carrying, I with my XDs in a kydex OWB retention holster and she with her marsala (hot pink) Ruger LC9 in an OWB leather holster prominently displayed against her white outfit. We had enjoyed the fair for the better part of three hours and had several positive interactions with other fairgoers who weren't aware you could carry in the fair, etc. We even found a pink Stark County Sheriff vehicle for Mrs. JustaShooter to have her picture taken with!

Image

We eventually settled in at the pavilion to take in a band we had enjoyed the past few years (the John Hampu Band, Classic Rock & Roll 60s–80s - decent band, but struggle with the venue and getting the board mix and volume right - but I digress...)

Part way into the second set as my wife re-joined me at our seats from dancing in front of the stage, something she enjoys - and is likely the source of the call that resulted in one of Stark County's Finest approaching her as she settled in the seat and asking her "is that real?" clearly referring to her sidearm. She answered it was (and leaned over to me to tell me she had thought of adding "... and so is his!" but decided against it), and we continued to take in the band, but not without noticing Officer Friendly had been joined by another Stark County Sheriff Deputy, and the pair were standing at the back of the pavilion observing us. Somewhat later, after a few more trips to dance a bit, she took some trash to the bin at the back of the pavilion and quickly returned and told me she had been asked by one of the deputies to take her gun and lock it up in the car (!).

I then approached the pair of deputies (noticing that Officer Friendly was not there) to see what was up. I asked if there was a problem, at which point they were re-joined by Officer Friendly. Up until this point I'm not even sure they realized I was openly carrying as well, as I had my holster at about 4:00 or a bit past because my width with holster didn't work well in the pavilion seats and the angle I approached them would have likely prevented them from seeing my holster. But I'm pretty sure Officer Friendly would have noticed given his direction of approach.

In any case, cue blather about not taking away your rights but surely you understand with the place we are with kids and people and blah blah blah I just asked her if she would consider taking her gun and locking it up in the car blah blah blah. I reply that we are just here to enjoy the band, and when the set is over, we were planning on leaving. Cue story about guy who was openly carrying in the grandstand earlier and how people were concerned, etc. etc, he agreed to leave because he didn't want to upset people, and surely you can understand... I respond that I agree that I don't want to upset people, but it is our right to carry, and that right is guaranteed by the Ohio constitution, and I don't see people getting upset, and all we want to do is finish listening to the band and then we are leaving. Somewhere in here, deputy #4 arrives (who couldn't *possibly* have missed that I'm also openly carrying.) Round and round she goes, after a couple more iterations and variations on this theme, I finally decide I'm done and tell them I'd like to go back and sit down and enjoy the rest of this set - is that going to be OK guys? They make noises in the affirmative and I return to my seat and have my wife join me for the remaining songs in the set.

During the remaining time we spent listening to the band, we noticed we had a cheering section at the back of the pavilion - all four of Stark County's Finest had remained to observe. As the set finished and we headed off to pick up a custom airbrushed t-shirt my wife had commissioned (pointedly *not* in the direction of the fairground exit), we thought they were going to be escorting us around the fair for the remainder of our stay - but alas, as we made the turn to the airbrush artist stand, they went elsewhere. We then left the fair without further incident - although I was fully expecting them or some of their friends to magically appear at some point after we had gotten in the car "just to check up on us" or some other pretext to see if we notified... But I was to be disappointed. Oh well! lol

Some things I learned:
As often as I have practiced this sort of encounter in my head, my heart was pounding. I think I did OK all the same, but not great - maybe not even "good", depending on how you look at it. I certainly have room for improvement.
It completely left my mind to get names, etc. for followup. Ugh.
I need to practice some additional responses, especially to the "people get alarmed" / "people get concerned" types of statements. I don't think I handled that particular one well.
Having a loud rock and roll band playing 75' behind you makes it *really* hard to understand what everyone is saying when you play back the recording afterward to evaluate yourself.
I *really* should have cut the encounter shorter than I did once it became clear they were in "strongly suggesting that we leave and disarm" mode rather than "ordering us to leave and disarm" mode, or even "you are being detained" mode. I spoke with them for nearly 5 minutes before breaking it off. Sigh.
It's pretty clear they did *not* like having a couple of mere citizens disregard their strongly-worded suggestion.
LEOs really don't like open carry, do they? I can't think of a single one I've talked to that does. One of the things they said was that unless they are in uniform, they conceal, and of course the implication is I should too - god forbid I disturb the sheep...

Anyway, I'm going to replay the audio a few more times to see what else I can learn. I don't suppose anyone knows how to clean up background noise in the form of loud music from an audio recording?


Why did you feel a need to engage with the deputies? They're certainly within their authority to as you and your wife to disarm. They couldn't do anything about it if you refused, which you were certainly within your rights to do. So why not just say "thanks" and carry on about your business. Engaging the deputies to "educate" them doesn't seem to have accomplished anything other than attracting attention to the situation, and elevating the possibility for a negative confrontation. Was that the objective?
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Re: Encounter with Sheriff deputies at Stark County Fair tod

Postby JustaShooter » Tue Sep 13, 2016 1:27 pm

SeanC wrote:Why did you feel a need to engage with the deputies? They're certainly within their authority to as you and your wife to disarm. They couldn't do anything about it if you refused, which you were certainly within your rights to do. So why not just say "thanks" and carry on about your business. Engaging the deputies to "educate" them doesn't seem to have accomplished anything other than attracting attention to the situation, and elevating the possibility for a negative confrontation. Was that the objective?

My objective in engaging them was to understand what was going on. Nothing more than that. I didn't hear what they said to my wife, and I wasn't clear if they had *told* her to leave and disarm, or what. I wasn't trying to educate them, nor was I looking for a negative confrontation.
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Re: Encounter with Sheriff deputies at Stark County Fair tod

Postby 3FULLMAGS+1 » Wed Sep 14, 2016 1:39 pm

[size=150][/size]
JustaShooter wrote:
SeanC wrote:Why did you feel a need to engage with the deputies? They're certainly within their authority to as you and your wife to disarm. They couldn't do anything about it if you refused, which you were certainly within your rights to do. So why not just say "thanks" and carry on about your business. Engaging the deputies to "educate" them doesn't seem to have accomplished anything other than attracting attention to the situation, and elevating the possibility for a negative confrontation. Was that the objective?

My objective in engaging them was to understand what was going on. Nothing more than that. I didn't hear what they said to my wife, and I wasn't clear if they had *told* her to leave and disarm, or what. I wasn't trying to educate them, nor was I looking for a negative confrontation.


You said......"It's certainly within their authority to as[k] you and your wife to disarm"......yes I agree it's within their authority to "ask", but if someones not doing anything illegal or dangerous or causing any kind of disturbance.........and NO, someone carrying a firearm doesn't count as causing a disturbance, the one whose's complaining is causing the disturbance....... why are they asking a carrier to disarm and put it in their vehicle? To appease the ignorant crowd that complains?
If that's the law enforcements policy, that needs to change, as it isn't addressing the heart of the problem.
They have no business asking, and I think that's what Justashooter is upset about.
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Re: Encounter with Sheriff deputies at Stark County Fair tod

Postby SeanC » Thu Sep 15, 2016 11:01 am

It's legal for women to go topless in Ohio, did you know that? A lot of people don't. And I know of at least one case where some lady decided it was a good day to sunbathe topless in a park with children around. Someone called the police, who arrived and told the caller that the exhibitionist wasn't doing anything illegal. The police still went over to the lady and asked her if she wouldn't mind doing her tanning elsewhere because it was making the kids uncomfortable.

A few weeks ago, I was flying my drone to take some pictures during a charity event. A police officer came over and told me that they would need to suspend the event if I didn't land because of safety concerns that aren't worth getting into here. In other words, the officer knew he didn't have any authority to make me land--I was properly credentialed and flying in public, uncontrolled airsapce. However, he thought it would be worth a shot to ask me to forego something I'm lawfully permitted to do so that everyone else can enjoy their activity. I landed immediately, packed up, and went home.

Part of a police officer's job is to keep the peace and trying to make sure that everyone can enjoy a public space. When you open carry, you may sometimes cause a great deal of anxiety to other members of the public, who may report that to the police, who may come and ask you to disarm so that everyone can enjoy whatever activity you happen to be participating in at the time. If you choose to accommodate the request, the event becomes a non-issue. If you want to be rigid about your rights, you certainly have that privilege. But it sounds like your refusal to disarm, or at least conceal, had you looking over your shoulder the entire evening and, generally, pretty worked up about the situation.
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Re: Encounter with Sheriff deputies at Stark County Fair tod

Postby docachna » Thu Sep 15, 2016 12:28 pm

SeanC wrote: ...Part of a police officer's job is to keep the peace and trying to make sure that everyone can enjoy a public space. When you open carry, you may sometimes cause a great deal of anxiety to other members of the public, who may report that to the police, who may come and ask you to disarm so that everyone can enjoy whatever activity you happen to be participating in at the time. If you choose to accommodate the request, the event becomes a non-issue. If you want to be rigid about your rights, you certainly have that privilege. But it sounds like your refusal to disarm, or at least conceal, had you looking over your shoulder the entire evening and, generally, pretty worked up about the situation.

Probably not in your drone scenario, and probably not in the topless scenario, but what about in the CC/OC scenario ? Are not LEO wandering into a violation of this statute if they attempt to "convince" you that even though you are legally entitled to OC/CC here, you really should consider foregoing your lawful activity, for the simple reason that it might be making someone "uncomfortable" ?
2921.45 Interfering with civil rights.
(A) No public servant, under color of his office, employment, or authority, shall knowingly deprive, or conspire or attempt to deprive any person of a constitutional or statutory right.

(B) Whoever violates this section is guilty of interfering with civil rights, a misdemeanor of the first degree.

Effective Date: 01-01-1974

What if I'm a person who is made extremely nervous and uncomfortable by the mere presence of droopy-drawered, tattooed hood rats ? Does that entitle me to conscript a handy LEO to impose my standards upon otherwise law-abiding citizens (whose attire and life choices I may nonetheless disdain), simply because their mere presence causes me anxiety ??? And in asking, are they not thereby attempting to deprive me of a constitutional or statutory right by simply even asking the question, regardless of their purported good intentions, just so the complainant can better enjoy whatever activity they're engaging in at the time ?
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Re: Encounter with Sheriff deputies at Stark County Fair tod

Postby Brian D. » Thu Sep 15, 2016 1:36 pm

I might put away my drone or cover up my ta-tas :shock: if the police ask. All jokes aside though, my firearm is there to protect my life. Whether OC or concealed (or both) that equipment stays put.
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Re: Encounter with Sheriff deputies at Stark County Fair tod

Postby gfrlaser » Thu Sep 15, 2016 3:17 pm

This...

"What if I'm a person who is made extremely nervous and uncomfortable by the mere presence of droopy-drawered, tattooed hood rats ? Does that entitle me to conscript a handy LEO to impose my standards upon otherwise law-abiding citizens (whose attire and life choices I may nonetheless disdain), simply because their mere presence causes me anxiety ???"

And.. has no doubt happened somewhere. I bet the LEO would tell the nervous nelly he has no right to ask them to leave for droopy drawers, to grin and bear it or leave.
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