Relatives close encounter in parking lot

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DontTreadOnMe
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Re: Relatives close encounter in parking lot

Post by DontTreadOnMe »

M-Quigley wrote:She's got a panic button on her car keys, but she was so startled by his sudden approach she dropped her keys on the ground. Instead of picking them up though, she put her cart in between her and him, since he moved in quicker..
We can pick apart what she may have done wrong, as she already has herself I'm sure, but this was smart. Kept the cart between her and the threat. That was quick thinking.

M-Quigley wrote:Her excuses were she couldn't find a way to comfortably body carry, carrying in her purse weighs her purse down, and if she has her kids with her she doesn't want her kids to get a hold of it. (she didn't have her kids with her at the time)
Okay, I'll be the bad male who doesn't understand how difficult on-body carry is for women, and I'll point this out: Even if she had a gun in her purse, would she have been able to deploy it? Lucky Gunner did some tests including a woman who is very experienced with purse carry, and on average it took them over 4 seconds from draw to 1st shot. It's in their article Purse Carry is the Worst Carry. So she's standing there with 3 aggressive young males just feet away, there's no way they're letting her root around in her purse for 4+ seconds.

Now the ladies on the board can tell me what an insensitive caveman I am.

M-Quigley wrote:The gun that her husband bought for her is a slightly compact version of a full size 9mm.(not a G19, but that size) It's an easy gun for her to shoot with, but not as concealable, and certainly not a pocket sized pistol.
Here's a couple more sacred cows I'll slaughter: capacity and accuracy. They're not bad, but in the vast majority of civilian DGUs they don't really matter much if at all. In many cases the gun won't even need to be fired, and in the times it is distance is likely to be 10' or less and 2-3 rounds. Your friend's situation is great evidence of this: Did she need a gun she can shoot 2" groups at 10 yards with, or did she need something she could (a) carry, (b) deploy quickly and (c) get solid hits within 10' or less?

Now to really set peoples' teeth on edge: She should consider a small revolver. Not because she's a delicate flower who can't handle a manly gun, but because revolvers shine at contact-distances and she just discovered that if she ever needs to use a gun, it'll be at or very near contact distance. Ruger's 5 shot 38spl LCR weighs about 15.5 ounces loaded. Get it, a DeSantis Nemisis pocket holster and whatever defensive ammo she likes.
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Re: Relatives close encounter in parking lot

Post by Mr. Glock »

Everyone comes around to carry in different ways. And traumatic situations can take some time to process....she'll either ramp up carry or she will "freeze up" on the concept. But pushing her immediately or telling her hubby right away isn't going to accomplish anything.

Purse carry- in a dedicated carry purse- is certainly an option. It has some weaknesses, but I 1. Don't carry a purse 2. Don't wear yoga pants and tank tops 3. Am about 2x the size as many women. I'll leave that subject up to women.

I know my carry system has adapted/changed over the last 20 years, since I got my first CHL.
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Re: Relatives close encounter in parking lot

Post by Brian D. »

It's hard to overstate the importance of situational awareness. When it becomes an everyday habit, there are all benefits and no real downside. Unless you want to count acquaintances being sort of snarky and making jokes about paranoia. Most of them quit doing that after you see some danger or problem that they were unaware of.
Quit worrying, hide your gun well, shut up, and CARRY that handgun!

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Re: Relatives close encounter in parking lot

Post by TSiWRX »

DontTreadOnMe wrote:
M-Quigley wrote:The gun that her husband bought for her is a slightly compact version of a full size 9mm.(not a G19, but that size) It's an easy gun for her to shoot with, but not as concealable, and certainly not a pocket sized pistol.
Here's a couple more sacred cows I'll slaughter: capacity and accuracy. They're not bad, but in the vast majority of civilian DGUs they don't really matter much if at all. In many cases the gun won't even need to be fired, and in the times it is distance is likely to be 10' or less and 2-3 rounds. Your friend's situation is great evidence of this: Did she need a gun she can shoot 2" groups at 10 yards with, or did she need something she could (a) carry, (b) deploy quickly and (c) get solid hits within 10' or less?

Now to really set peoples' teeth on edge: She should consider a small revolver. Not because she's a delicate flower who can't handle a manly gun, but because revolvers shine at contact-distances and she just discovered that if she ever needs to use a gun, it'll be at or very near contact distance. Ruger's 5 shot 38spl LCR weighs about 15.5 ounces loaded. Get it, a DeSantis Nemisis pocket holster and whatever defensive ammo she likes.
What's the pull weight on a Ruger LCR? A S&W 442/642?

At closer range, every degree of deviation covers more real-world distance.

There's a reason why otherwise very well trained shooters miss (with any gun) at rather close distances, when there's not only adrenaline involved, but also dynamic movement.

I'm not debating that snubbies are rather awesome concealed-carry instruments. I love mine.

But I have a *great* respect for anyone who can shoot an out-of-the-box factory snubbie *well*.

I don't think it's an easy gun to shoot, at all, for quite a number of different reasons.

Look, I get it - many times, the simple threat of resistance is enough to defuse the situation. Here, I completely agree that simply having a tool can make all the difference in the world.

But when it comes to a violent crime encounter that has the specter of grave bodily injury or death over it, I would rather that my bluff be backed up by some actual material. I'll take a psych-out any day. Is my gun an amulet? I'd be lying if I said that I didn't wish it was - I'm Chinese, after all, and we're a superstitious bunch. :P :oops: :lol: But I want to be able to trust that I can effect a physiologic stop, if things did progress that far. While part of that is undeniably terminal ballistics, even the most devastating bullet won't do me any good if I cannot deliver the shots with sufficient accuracy.

I'd encourage the OP's relative to find a weapon that she's comfortable carrying (and however that method comes to be) and that she at least understands the compromises involved. And that if she does choose to want to devote some time to practice, that she picks her weapon with this intent in-mind as well: that she picks something that she will really actually be willing to shoot in such a manner.
Last edited by TSiWRX on Mon Feb 22, 2016 1:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Relatives close encounter in parking lot

Post by Brian D. »

TSiWRX wrote: What's the pull weight on a Ruger LCR? A S&W 442/642?
African, or European? :lol: I had to do that..now for something completely different..useful input:

The lightweight frame five shot revolvers weigh roughly one pound loaded. Their respective double action trigger pulls, about ten or so times that amount, box stock. By comparison, several of the small single action or striker fired semi autos factor out much better in that regard. All attempts at humor aside, it is a point worth considering.
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Re: Relatives close encounter in parking lot

Post by DontTreadOnMe »

TSiWRX wrote:What's the pull weight on a Ruger LCR? A S&W 442/642?
That's why I recommended the LCR. I don't have one myself, or a trigger gauge. I can say this: I've worked with 2 people who have serious hand strength issues due to medical issues. Each of them had difficulty working the slide on most semi-autos, even when given guidance by a RO who swore "anyone can do this". One of them had trouble with my 442 trigger. The LCR was one of several guns they rented at a local range, both were able to shoot it (accurately, to whatever they felt that meant) and both, after trying several options, made that choice.
TSiWRX wrote:But I have a *great* respect for anyone who can shoot an out-of-the-box factory snubbie *well*.

I don't think it's an easy gun to shoot, at all, for quite a number of different reasons.
As long as you've got the strength to pull the trigger (and if you don't you're going to struggle with most - but not all - guns), it's a terribly easy gun to shoot . Whether one can shoot it "well" depends on one's standard for "shoot well", which comes a distant 3rd in importance to "have a gun" and "reliable".

Revolvers have plenty of downsides, but for the vast majority of gun owners, who don't frequent message boards and don't practice regularly, they can be an excellent choice. For people who will practice regularly (even if not frequently), there are other guns that may be a better choice.
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Re: Relatives close encounter in parking lot

Post by TSiWRX »

DontTreadOnMe wrote:
TSiWRX wrote:What's the pull weight on a Ruger LCR? A S&W 442/642?
That's why I recommended the LCR. I don't have one myself, or a trigger gauge. I can say this: I've worked with 2 people who have serious hand strength issues due to medical issues. Each of them had difficulty working the slide on most semi-autos, even when given guidance by a RO who swore "anyone can do this". One of them had trouble with my 442 trigger. The LCR was one of several guns they rented at a local range, both were able to shoot it and both, after trying several options, made that choice.
I cross-shopped the LCR when I was looking for a snubbie and ended up with the S&W M&P 340. :)

The LCR's trigger pull is spec'ed at 9 lbs. I didn't really feel much of a difference between it and my 340 (has a ~12 lb. pull), but I have decent grip strength, so it's probably just something that never fully registered for me. Instead, for me, subjectively, the LCR had a much better recoil impulse. The M&P won-out for me, though, as it pointed considerably more naturally in my hand, and my end-use for it is precisely as you'd noted: a very close-range weapon (with the additional caveat that it is mostly intended to be fired unsighted).
TSiWRX wrote:But I have a *great* respect for anyone who can shoot an out-of-the-box factory snubbie *well*.

I don't think it's an easy gun to shoot, at all, for quite a number of different reasons.
As long as you've got the strength to pull the trigger (and if you don't you're going to struggle with most - but not all - guns), it's a terribly easy gun to shoot . Whether one can shoot it "well" depends on one's standard for "shoot well", which comes a distant 3rd in importance to "have a gun" and "reliable".

Revolvers have plenty of downsides, but for the vast majority of gun owners, who don't frequent message boards and don't practice regularly, they can be an excellent choice. For people who will practice regularly (even if not frequently), there are other guns that may be a better choice.
I hope you were able to catch my edits above - my apologies if you were not. :oops: But as you can read, I don't disagree with your take. :)

It's just that any time the snubbie revolver is thrown out for less-practiced shooters or those with less raw hand-strength, I like to be the devil's advocate - so that at least that decision will not be a default/automatic. :wink: :)
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Re: Relatives close encounter in parking lot

Post by DontTreadOnMe »

TSiWRX wrote:I hope you were able to catch my edits above - my apologies if you were not. :oops: But as you can read, I don't disagree with your take. :)

It's just that any time the snubbie revolver is thrown out for less-practiced shooters or those with less raw hand-strength, I like to be the devil's advocate - so that at least that decision will not be a default/automatic. :wink: :)
No it's fine. Different perspectives are probably exactly what the OP's friend needs to hear. From what I read she got a gun her husband bought her, because she shot it well at the range. That's not the worst reason to buy a gun but obviously it failed to consider some important points.

I can shoot 3"-4" groups at 7 yards with my 442. I rarely carry it. I carry a G26 unless I think it'll be too uncomfortable for my day's plans, then it'll be the G43. If that won't work, it's the snub. If I need ultra small & light, it's the LCP (which has a lighter trigger but is much harder for me to be accurate with due to the gun's very light weight).
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Re: Relatives close encounter in parking lot

Post by Brian D. »

We stay around this stuff long enough we see "all kinds". I know a woman who runs her .38 special J-frame fairly well as long as the practice sessions are on the brief side. She has kind of poor hand/finger strength, and in fact is just sort of generally petite in stature. The double action on that gun has been smoothed up and lightened (not so much that it won't pop any and all primers) but even so she must use her index AND second finger when firing more than a couple cylinders worth. In fact that is her default mode now and she has learned to run the trigger that way, without losing her grip in the stocks, somewhat to my surprise. Even when shooting "strong" hand only she hangs on. ( I do not know if she's ever done any non-dominant-hand-only shooting with it.)

Give her a full sized 1911 with non-plus+ ammunition, she can operate it fine except for two things:

1) She can just barely pull back the slide to load it, even if the hammer is cocked beforehand. And only once at that.
2) Way too big and heavy for her to carry, as you may have guessed.
Quit worrying, hide your gun well, shut up, and CARRY that handgun!

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Re: Relatives close encounter in parking lot

Post by gaptrick »

I know, lets say 10 people who have their CHL's. 4 of these got theirs, "...on the chance if I ever go somewhere where I might need it, I'll be legal and ready..."

I've convinced 2 of these people that that's not how it works, but the other two still feel they can dictate when they'll need it. The bottom line is that after finding the perfect gun that suits her, she will still NEED TO CARRY IT all the time. She will need to know where it is at all times and be conscious of how she needs to go about drawing it. I can somewhat understand her trepidation in not wanting her kids getting access while they're out and about, but its her kids that should DRIVE her to EDC.

Next time hand to pocket may not make the snake put away his fangs.
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Re: Relatives close encounter in parking lot

Post by Mustang380gal »

DontTreadOnMe wrote:
Okay, I'll be the bad male who doesn't understand how difficult on-body carry is for women, and I'll point this out: Even if she had a gun in her purse, would she have been able to deploy it? Lucky Gunner did some tests including a woman who is very experienced with purse carry, and on average it took them over 4 seconds from draw to 1st shot. It's in their article Purse Carry is the Worst Carry. So she's standing there with 3 aggressive young males just feet away, there's no way they're letting her root around in her purse for 4+ seconds.

Now the ladies on the board can tell me what an insensitive caveman I am.


.
Belt loops and belts for women are usually too narrow for most holsters, nor are they built with enough strength. Most women don't wear belts, and there is no way to wear them with pull-on capris or yoga pants. Church clothes are also hard--no place for a belt at all on most dresses, and no way to conceal.

The key is to pay attention. I can and have had my hand in my purse, hand on gun, without it coming out when my spidey sense went tingly. i generally walk to and from parking lots with my hand on my purse, even while the purse is carried cross body. While pushing a cart, the purse is over my belly.

One other woman carrier that I know uses a purse had a creepy guy get too friendly in a gas station. She unzipped her purse, put her hand on the gun, and eventually the guy lost interest, but he did not notice what she was doing. When she went to pay for her stuff, the male clerk said, "I don't know what he was going to do, but I know what you were ready to do."

We aren't out for quick draw contests, that is for sure. But we should be aware of our surroundings, and pay attention to the spidey sense.
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Re: Relatives close encounter in parking lot

Post by OldManTod »

On-body is not always an option, it just isn't. There are times when I have to take my complete rig off and put it in my camera bag, primarily because of the activity, but secondary because I have been around youth when "custody" issues arose and I refuse to be a stray bullet when my family is around.
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Re: Relatives close encounter in parking lot

Post by pediem »

I've had my CHL for going on 4 years now. I carry almost all the time, unless I'm going on a multi-errand run with several stops at mandated no-carry zones. Even then, I try to carry and simply remove my holster and handgun for those places.

My carry guns range from 1911s to a sub-compact Beretta Px4 to what has become my favorite lately, a Kahr PM9. Most of my holsters are leather OWB holsters, but on days when I know I'll need to be removing the holster, I've gone to carrying this kydex one (http://thewellarmedwoman.com/holsters/i ... nd-by-twaw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) (I hope the link is ok). It fits the Kahr exquistely well, and it fits me very well. I'm tall and a bit on the generous side, but the same holster works equally well for a friend of mine who is stick-skinny and about 8" shorter than I am.

I've just never felt great about off-body carry, so I've made sure to find ways to carry on me that work, summer or winter, t-shirts or heavy clothes. I've found most jeans have belt loops that will allow for a standard web belt, but I'll admit, dress clothes are a bit harder to work with.
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Re: Relatives close encounter in parking lot

Post by M-Quigley »

DontTreadOnMe wrote:
TSiWRX wrote:I hope you were able to catch my edits above - my apologies if you were not. :oops: But as you can read, I don't disagree with your take. :)

It's just that any time the snubbie revolver is thrown out for less-practiced shooters or those with less raw hand-strength, I like to be the devil's advocate - so that at least that decision will not be a default/automatic. :wink: :)
No it's fine. Different perspectives are probably exactly what the OP's friend needs to hear. From what I read she got a gun her husband bought her, because she shot it well at the range. That's not the worst reason to buy a gun but obviously it failed to consider some important points.

I can shoot 3"-4" groups at 7 yards with my 442. I rarely carry it. I carry a G26 unless I think it'll be too uncomfortable for my day's plans, then it'll be the G43. If that won't work, it's the snub. If I need ultra small & light, it's the LCP (which has a lighter trigger but is much harder for me to be accurate with due to the gun's very light weight).
I'm sorry if I gave that impression in the OP. Her husband got her the gun without consulting her. She did happen to shoot okay with it later on.
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Re: Relatives close encounter in parking lot

Post by MyWifeSaidYes »

DontTreadOnMe wrote:... So she's standing there with 3 aggressive young males just feet away, there's no way they're letting her root around in her purse for 4+ seconds. ...
But they originally asked her for money.

Rooting around in her purse is exactly what they wanted her to do.

:wink:
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