Concealing vs Covering

Use this forum to post your experience with encounters with law enforcement, criminals, or other encounters as a result of your firearm or potential to be carrying one.

Moderators: Chuck, Mustang380gal, Coordinators, Moderators

carmen fovozzo
OFCC Patron Member
OFCC Patron Member
Posts: 19033
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2007 11:08 am
Location: NEO

Re: Concealing vs Covering

Post by carmen fovozzo »

Metal1 wrote:How about just minding your own business. Clearly the guy didn't care if his gun showed. Two words I wish would go away forever "PRINTING" and "MADE". Usually when I see either in a post I move right along.
And stop with all that "tactical" BS talk. Everyone thinks they are some walking NinjaReconRangerSeal. Guess what, you aren't. Go change your 5.11's and do a personal reset.
I like this post. Need a like button.
Life is full of God given coincidences..
A MEMBER OF OFCC SINCE 2004...
Thanks for shopping at Charmin Carmens
CroManGun
OFCC Patron Member
OFCC Patron Member
Posts: 1613
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 3:29 am
Location: Paarmaa!

Re: Concealing vs Covering

Post by CroManGun »

Metal1 wrote:How about just minding your own business. Clearly the guy didn't care if his gun showed. Two words I wish would go away forever "PRINTING" and "MADE". Usually when I see either in a post I move right along.
And stop with all that "tactical" BS talk. Everyone thinks they are some walking NinjaReconRangerSeal. Guess what, you aren't. Go change your 5.11's and do a personal reset.
Hey, I like the "tactical" BS talk.

It's like listening to some guy take a half hour telling you what he would do if he had five minutes alone with the model on the cover of the Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Edition.

Or, like listening to the harrowing situations encountered by the guy that drives the "SECURITY" vehicle, with the flashing lights, around the mall parking lot.
Last edited by CroManGun on Fri Feb 19, 2016 9:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
Genuine Scooter Trash
Member: NRA/OFCC/AAA/GER/AFG
Former Member: Amish Chippendales
I Am Not A Lawyer, But I Have Played One In Real Life
techguy85
Posts: 1332
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2012 8:55 am
Location: Columbus

Re: Concealing vs Covering

Post by techguy85 »

I knew exactly where this one was heading as soon as I read the first post.
I knew pretty much who was going to say what as well.
Shame we can't even have a civil discussion on this topic without it turning into this.
I think that both sides have valid points but it gets lost in the snark.
User avatar
TSiWRX
OFCC Patron Member
OFCC Patron Member
Posts: 6676
Joined: Fri Jan 28, 2011 8:33 pm
Location: Cleveland/Shaker Heights

Re: Concealing vs Covering

Post by TSiWRX »

techguy85 wrote:I knew exactly where this one was heading as soon as I read the first post.
I knew pretty much who was going to say what as well.
Shame we can't even have a civil discussion on this topic without it turning into this.
I think that both sides have valid points but it gets lost in the snark.
^ This. +1. :(
Allen - Shaker Heights, Ohio
rbel
OFCC Member
OFCC Member
Posts: 14
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 8:54 am

Re: Concealing vs Covering

Post by rbel »

I just received my CHL in January so I haven't carried in summer yet. I carry a full size M&P 9mm in an Old Faithful OWB high rider with a DM Bullard 1 1/2 inch double thick belt. My shirt and winter coat are over it. It's very comfortable and the high rider keeps the barrel from peeking out. I've taken my jacket off in restaurants and such and never had a problem. I plan on carrying my shield in a IWB in the summer. Frankly, I think most people are not paying attention and are walking around in their own little worlds. It's usually other CCW holders that notice.
ApexShootingTactics
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2013 1:25 am
Location: Medina County Ohio
Contact:

Re: Concealing vs Covering

Post by ApexShootingTactics »

Wow. This is striking a nerve. MyWifeYes, I don't even know where to start with your questioning but I will try to keep it simple.

LEO and The Armed Citizen's mission is VERY different. One is interacting with the public concerning criminal matters and the other is going about their daily activities with the goal of protecting themselves. I have been a police officer for 13 years and been carrying concealed longer than that. I started carrying concealed in VA when I was stationed there. The mindset and goals are different especially when LE have the option to change to a more offensive role.

I did say generally because the words "never" and "always" rarely apply. There are lots of exceptions.

I most certainly do support open carry and have been in contact with dozens of people who open carry. I have open carried off myself. How people ruin it and I have seen this first hand, when businesses have a knee jerk reaction to an open carry or concealed carry incident and they post no gun signs in response. A local restaurant put up no gun signs when a CHL holder left their gun in a bathroom and several stores in our business district posted signs because of a local business man was constantly open carrying. The thing about the business man is he had a solid tactical reason to open carry, he owns a business that buys gold, coins and antiques. He has shady people coming in all the time. Though he created a problem by poorly educating his neighboring businesses and in return many posted No Gun signs. Luckily we have a very active CHL instructor in the area, Roger Polk who passes out the No Gun No Money cards and got several business to reconsider.

My comment concerning the lack of retention holsters is based on going to open carry events and my contact over the years with those who open carry. A thumb break is not adequate retention. If you disagree I'd be more than happy to show you first hand.

You inquired about the controlled scenarios. I have no video available but if you want to go through some scenarios let me know, I have airsoft, sims, shock knife, inert OC. We can set up some scenarios and video tape those. I'll make you a deal, you prove me wrong and the training is free.

The purpose of this post was to get people to think about the difference between Concealing and Covering. Someone sent me a link to a podcast for Ballistic Radio where they had Jeff Gonzales of Trident Concepts discussing this same topic and several you tube videos of prominent instructors with a very similar opinion as mine.

MyWifeSaidYes, As for replying to the rest of your manifesto, I won't. It is too difficult to keep track of but if any of you want to meet up for coffee I think we would have a better discussion face to face.
-Andrew

http://apexshooting.com

https://www.facebook.com/ApexShootingTactics

By failing to prepare, you are preparing to fail. -Benjamin Franklin
User avatar
deanimator
Posts: 7863
Joined: Fri Mar 24, 2006 7:34 pm
Location: Rocky River

Re: Concealing vs Covering

Post by deanimator »

ApexShootingTactics wrote:A local restaurant put up no gun signs when a CHL holder left their gun in a bathroom and several stores in our business district posted signs because of a local business man was constantly open carrying.
That's hardly an unknown behavior by POLICE.

Would you say that a cop who leaves his gun in a bathroom is "ruining it" for other cops?

If open carry justifies CPZ signs, what does the Dorner fiasco in LA justify?
Life comes at you fast. Be prepared to shoot it in the head when it does.
ApexShootingTactics
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2013 1:25 am
Location: Medina County Ohio
Contact:

Re: Concealing vs Covering

Post by ApexShootingTactics »

deanimator wrote:
Would you say that a cop who leaves his gun in a bathroom is "ruining it" for other cops?
Absolutely.
-Andrew

http://apexshooting.com

https://www.facebook.com/ApexShootingTactics

By failing to prepare, you are preparing to fail. -Benjamin Franklin
User avatar
schmieg
OFCC Coordinator
OFCC Coordinator
Posts: 5751
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 11:11 pm
Location: Madeira, Ohio

Re: Concealing vs Covering

Post by schmieg »

WY_Not wrote:But that is one of the good points in Ohio law. We are not bound by such strict definitions of concealed, covered, etc. If a person wants such strict interpretations, one is free to go to FL or some other state where printing can make you a criminal. Here in OH, the gentleman is free to carry how he wishes. Sounds like his attitude could use some work but he did nothing wrong.
A few years ago, before Virginia law changed, I was visiting my brother and we stopped at a restaurant that served alcohol. I dutifully pulled my shirt back in a proper Buckeye Tuck behind my 1911. My brother kept pulling my shirt out so the gun was covered. we had to have a discussion. He couldn't believe the nitwits in Fairfax County had that much influence to put that law into effect.
-- Mike

"The smallest minority on earth is the individual. Those who deny individual rights cannot claim to be defenders of minorities." - Ayn Rand
User avatar
gaptrick
OFCC Patron Member
OFCC Patron Member
Posts: 1375
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 4:02 pm
Location: Cuyahoga/Lake Counties

Re: Concealing vs Covering

Post by gaptrick »

I love the discussion and topic.

As for me, I am much like the shopper in question (at least when I'm not donning a winter hoodie)... I am a "sloppy" concealed carrier. I IWB, either tuck or drape, and step out the door. I will, depending on circumstances, become consious of it and straighten myself, but after that, I don't think about it much.

I believe we're not all on a "mission" or even tactical. There are those here who are of the set that believe too much training is never enough (and you know who you are TXiWXR! :) ) while I on the other hand, have become quite proficient in carrying, handling and firing my firearm. I've Been to a couple IDPA shoots and will go to more. Will go to the BFA ZOMBIE shoot in the fall (sounds like fun)... This is enough for me.

The simple fact I carry at all is my advantage. I will never be known as Billy the Kid when drawing or compete with Jerry Miculik shooting steel. Being a gambling man I won't put my money on the chance I will need to dive under tables and fire while rolling ala Bruce Willis therefor I won't wast time or treasure training for it.

I am of the Keep It Simple, Stupid group. I think had I seen that gentleman in the store it would have been, " Oil that thing up once and a while will ya? If you need it while I'm in this store with you I'd like to be reasonably sure it's going to go BANG!"
Unarmed people are vulnerable people, and criminal predators prey upon them.

AWRHawkin


"A story about a bird stealing a knife from a crime scene...and we're more interested in hearing about the Canadian with a gun.
Man, we need to get lives."
MWSY
Brian D.
Posts: 16229
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 8:42 pm
Location: SW Ohio

Re: Concealing vs Covering

Post by Brian D. »

As alluded to earlier I'd rather save my scolding and finger wagging for people who get the license but then never or only rarely bother to carry. No good way to spot those folks in a crowd...
Quit worrying, hide your gun well, shut up, and CARRY that handgun!

********************************************************************************
1911 and Browning Hi Power Enthusianado.
MacDonald
Posts: 237
Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2014 7:00 am
Location: Warren County

Re: Concealing vs Covering

Post by MacDonald »

I OCed in Walmart several weeks ago. As I was checking out, a man came up and said my gun was showing. I quickly ran down a list of replies: F/U a la Arnold in Terminator; Mind your own business; So? But chose to point out OC was legal in Ohio. He replied that he just thought I would want to know.

After thinking about it, I became mildly ticked. I mean, OWB wearing a tucked in shirt...how would I NOT know my gun was showing?
:roll:

When I wear a jacket or un-tucked shirt, it is covered. When it is covered, it is concealed.
John 3:16
Romans 1:16- "For I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ..."
NRA Lifetime Member
To be sure of hitting the target, shoot first and call whatever you hit the target.
"Live free or die: death is not the worst of evils" - John Stark
User avatar
TSiWRX
OFCC Patron Member
OFCC Patron Member
Posts: 6676
Joined: Fri Jan 28, 2011 8:33 pm
Location: Cleveland/Shaker Heights

Re: Concealing vs Covering

Post by TSiWRX »

gaptrick wrote: I believe we're not all on a "mission" or even tactical. There are those here who are of the set that believe too much training is never enough (and you know who you are TXiWXR! :) ) while I on the other hand, have become quite proficient in carrying, handling and firing my firearm. I've Been to a couple IDPA shoots and will go to more. Will go to the BFA ZOMBIE shoot in the fall (sounds like fun)... This is enough for me.
:P :)

The truth of the matter is that there's a fundamental schism in my own outlook on this: I do not believe that any training should be legally mandated or otherwise made necessary (I would, however, like to see mandatory firearms safety be taught in an age-appropriate manner, in blocks throughout our child's primary school years), but at the same time, I also believe very strongly in training.

I have open-carried before. I will be honest and say that I did not like it while I did it. But that's just me. :oops:

My personal feelings on Open Carry are...I wouldn't call it conflicted...rather complex: in much the same way I that I view training.
Allen - Shaker Heights, Ohio
User avatar
Werz
OFCC Patron Member
OFCC Patron Member
Posts: 5506
Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 2:37 am

Re: Concealing vs Covering

Post by Werz »

OK. Let's take "tactical" back to its original military meaning and contrast it to the other term with which it is often paired: "strategic."

Generally, and militarily, tactics are the actual means used to gain an objective, while strategy is the overall campaign plan. In terms of carrying a firearm, tactics involve anticipation of certain threats, ease of access, the element of surprise, weapon retention, effective shooting techniques, etc. Strategy is the overall effect of being armed in response to physical threats, including criminal attack. So let's look at strategy, rather than tactics, and determine what has been discovered about the general deterrence of criminal behavior by making violent criminals aware that you are armed.

In a study conducted for the National Institute of Justice back in the 1980s, more than 1,600 imprisoned felons were interviewed, and these were their responses:

81% agreed that a smart criminal always tries to find out if his potential victim is armed.
57% agreed that most criminals are more worried about meeting an armed victim than they are about running into the police.
56% agreed that a criminal is not going to mess around with a victim who he knows is armed with a gun.

Are there those who like to take chances? Sure. But only 24% agreed that committing crime against an armed victim is an exciting challenge.

Strategically speaking, I'm willing to play the percentages on this one.

Reference: Wright, James D., Rossi, Peter H., The Armed Criminal in America, U.S. Department of Justice, 1985.
"An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life."
-- Robert A. Heinlein, Beyond This Horizon
"Remember that protecting our gun rights still boils down to keeping a majority in the electorate, and that our daily activities can have the impact of being ambassadors for the gun culture ..."
-- BobK
Open carry is a First Amendment exercise.
techguy85
Posts: 1332
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2012 8:55 am
Location: Columbus

Re: Concealing vs Covering

Post by techguy85 »

Werz wrote:OK. Let's take "tactical" back to its original military meaning and contrast it to the other term with which it is often paired: "strategic."

Generally, and militarily, tactics are the actual means used to gain an objective, while strategy is the overall campaign plan. In terms of carrying a firearm, tactics involve anticipation of certain threats, ease of access, the element of surprise, weapon retention, effective shooting techniques, etc. Strategy is the overall effect of being armed in response to physical threats, including criminal attack. So let's look at strategy, rather than tactics, and determine what has been discovered about the general deterrence of criminal behavior by making violent criminals aware that you are armed.

In a study conducted for the National Institute of Justice back in the 1980s, more than 1,600 imprisoned felons were interviewed, and these were their responses:

81% agreed that a smart criminal always tries to find out if his potential victim is armed.
57% agreed that most criminals are more worried about meeting an armed victim than they are about running into the police.
56% agreed that a criminal is not going to mess around with a victim who he knows is armed with a gun.

Are there those who like to take chances? Sure. But only 24% agreed that committing crime against an armed victim is an exciting challenge.

Strategically speaking, I'm willing to play the percentages on this one.

Reference: Wright, James D., Rossi, Peter H., The Armed Criminal in America, U.S. Department of Justice, 1985.
First things first, I think open carry should be perfectly legal.
For me, strict situational awareness is more of a challenge than it is for some, so I don't open carry unless I am armed with a second gun, and carrying in group e.g. on an organized oc walk or with friends like Chuck, etc.
I think open carry of rifles can do more harm than good when it comes to public opinion.
I think open carry of pistols, when done responsibly and safely can make people think and with the right aditude invites questions about guns, carrying, etc. I think the gun rights activism is a good thing, people should get used to the idea that just because you see someone with a gun doesn't mean they are up to no good.
but, just like anything else, Doing things in the wrong way can put people off. Being sensative to that is only smart.
Post Reply