I like this post. Need a like button.Metal1 wrote:How about just minding your own business. Clearly the guy didn't care if his gun showed. Two words I wish would go away forever "PRINTING" and "MADE". Usually when I see either in a post I move right along.
And stop with all that "tactical" BS talk. Everyone thinks they are some walking NinjaReconRangerSeal. Guess what, you aren't. Go change your 5.11's and do a personal reset.
Concealing vs Covering
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Re: Concealing vs Covering
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Re: Concealing vs Covering
Hey, I like the "tactical" BS talk.Metal1 wrote:How about just minding your own business. Clearly the guy didn't care if his gun showed. Two words I wish would go away forever "PRINTING" and "MADE". Usually when I see either in a post I move right along.
And stop with all that "tactical" BS talk. Everyone thinks they are some walking NinjaReconRangerSeal. Guess what, you aren't. Go change your 5.11's and do a personal reset.
It's like listening to some guy take a half hour telling you what he would do if he had five minutes alone with the model on the cover of the Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Edition.
Or, like listening to the harrowing situations encountered by the guy that drives the "SECURITY" vehicle, with the flashing lights, around the mall parking lot.
Last edited by CroManGun on Fri Feb 19, 2016 9:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Concealing vs Covering
I knew exactly where this one was heading as soon as I read the first post.
I knew pretty much who was going to say what as well.
Shame we can't even have a civil discussion on this topic without it turning into this.
I think that both sides have valid points but it gets lost in the snark.
I knew pretty much who was going to say what as well.
Shame we can't even have a civil discussion on this topic without it turning into this.
I think that both sides have valid points but it gets lost in the snark.
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Re: Concealing vs Covering
^ This. +1.techguy85 wrote:I knew exactly where this one was heading as soon as I read the first post.
I knew pretty much who was going to say what as well.
Shame we can't even have a civil discussion on this topic without it turning into this.
I think that both sides have valid points but it gets lost in the snark.
Allen - Shaker Heights, Ohio
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Re: Concealing vs Covering
I just received my CHL in January so I haven't carried in summer yet. I carry a full size M&P 9mm in an Old Faithful OWB high rider with a DM Bullard 1 1/2 inch double thick belt. My shirt and winter coat are over it. It's very comfortable and the high rider keeps the barrel from peeking out. I've taken my jacket off in restaurants and such and never had a problem. I plan on carrying my shield in a IWB in the summer. Frankly, I think most people are not paying attention and are walking around in their own little worlds. It's usually other CCW holders that notice.
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Re: Concealing vs Covering
Wow. This is striking a nerve. MyWifeYes, I don't even know where to start with your questioning but I will try to keep it simple.
LEO and The Armed Citizen's mission is VERY different. One is interacting with the public concerning criminal matters and the other is going about their daily activities with the goal of protecting themselves. I have been a police officer for 13 years and been carrying concealed longer than that. I started carrying concealed in VA when I was stationed there. The mindset and goals are different especially when LE have the option to change to a more offensive role.
I did say generally because the words "never" and "always" rarely apply. There are lots of exceptions.
I most certainly do support open carry and have been in contact with dozens of people who open carry. I have open carried off myself. How people ruin it and I have seen this first hand, when businesses have a knee jerk reaction to an open carry or concealed carry incident and they post no gun signs in response. A local restaurant put up no gun signs when a CHL holder left their gun in a bathroom and several stores in our business district posted signs because of a local business man was constantly open carrying. The thing about the business man is he had a solid tactical reason to open carry, he owns a business that buys gold, coins and antiques. He has shady people coming in all the time. Though he created a problem by poorly educating his neighboring businesses and in return many posted No Gun signs. Luckily we have a very active CHL instructor in the area, Roger Polk who passes out the No Gun No Money cards and got several business to reconsider.
My comment concerning the lack of retention holsters is based on going to open carry events and my contact over the years with those who open carry. A thumb break is not adequate retention. If you disagree I'd be more than happy to show you first hand.
You inquired about the controlled scenarios. I have no video available but if you want to go through some scenarios let me know, I have airsoft, sims, shock knife, inert OC. We can set up some scenarios and video tape those. I'll make you a deal, you prove me wrong and the training is free.
The purpose of this post was to get people to think about the difference between Concealing and Covering. Someone sent me a link to a podcast for Ballistic Radio where they had Jeff Gonzales of Trident Concepts discussing this same topic and several you tube videos of prominent instructors with a very similar opinion as mine.
MyWifeSaidYes, As for replying to the rest of your manifesto, I won't. It is too difficult to keep track of but if any of you want to meet up for coffee I think we would have a better discussion face to face.
LEO and The Armed Citizen's mission is VERY different. One is interacting with the public concerning criminal matters and the other is going about their daily activities with the goal of protecting themselves. I have been a police officer for 13 years and been carrying concealed longer than that. I started carrying concealed in VA when I was stationed there. The mindset and goals are different especially when LE have the option to change to a more offensive role.
I did say generally because the words "never" and "always" rarely apply. There are lots of exceptions.
I most certainly do support open carry and have been in contact with dozens of people who open carry. I have open carried off myself. How people ruin it and I have seen this first hand, when businesses have a knee jerk reaction to an open carry or concealed carry incident and they post no gun signs in response. A local restaurant put up no gun signs when a CHL holder left their gun in a bathroom and several stores in our business district posted signs because of a local business man was constantly open carrying. The thing about the business man is he had a solid tactical reason to open carry, he owns a business that buys gold, coins and antiques. He has shady people coming in all the time. Though he created a problem by poorly educating his neighboring businesses and in return many posted No Gun signs. Luckily we have a very active CHL instructor in the area, Roger Polk who passes out the No Gun No Money cards and got several business to reconsider.
My comment concerning the lack of retention holsters is based on going to open carry events and my contact over the years with those who open carry. A thumb break is not adequate retention. If you disagree I'd be more than happy to show you first hand.
You inquired about the controlled scenarios. I have no video available but if you want to go through some scenarios let me know, I have airsoft, sims, shock knife, inert OC. We can set up some scenarios and video tape those. I'll make you a deal, you prove me wrong and the training is free.
The purpose of this post was to get people to think about the difference between Concealing and Covering. Someone sent me a link to a podcast for Ballistic Radio where they had Jeff Gonzales of Trident Concepts discussing this same topic and several you tube videos of prominent instructors with a very similar opinion as mine.
MyWifeSaidYes, As for replying to the rest of your manifesto, I won't. It is too difficult to keep track of but if any of you want to meet up for coffee I think we would have a better discussion face to face.
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Re: Concealing vs Covering
That's hardly an unknown behavior by POLICE.ApexShootingTactics wrote:A local restaurant put up no gun signs when a CHL holder left their gun in a bathroom and several stores in our business district posted signs because of a local business man was constantly open carrying.
Would you say that a cop who leaves his gun in a bathroom is "ruining it" for other cops?
If open carry justifies CPZ signs, what does the Dorner fiasco in LA justify?
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Re: Concealing vs Covering
Absolutely.deanimator wrote:
Would you say that a cop who leaves his gun in a bathroom is "ruining it" for other cops?
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Re: Concealing vs Covering
A few years ago, before Virginia law changed, I was visiting my brother and we stopped at a restaurant that served alcohol. I dutifully pulled my shirt back in a proper Buckeye Tuck behind my 1911. My brother kept pulling my shirt out so the gun was covered. we had to have a discussion. He couldn't believe the nitwits in Fairfax County had that much influence to put that law into effect.WY_Not wrote:But that is one of the good points in Ohio law. We are not bound by such strict definitions of concealed, covered, etc. If a person wants such strict interpretations, one is free to go to FL or some other state where printing can make you a criminal. Here in OH, the gentleman is free to carry how he wishes. Sounds like his attitude could use some work but he did nothing wrong.
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Re: Concealing vs Covering
I love the discussion and topic.
As for me, I am much like the shopper in question (at least when I'm not donning a winter hoodie)... I am a "sloppy" concealed carrier. I IWB, either tuck or drape, and step out the door. I will, depending on circumstances, become consious of it and straighten myself, but after that, I don't think about it much.
I believe we're not all on a "mission" or even tactical. There are those here who are of the set that believe too much training is never enough (and you know who you are TXiWXR! ) while I on the other hand, have become quite proficient in carrying, handling and firing my firearm. I've Been to a couple IDPA shoots and will go to more. Will go to the BFA ZOMBIE shoot in the fall (sounds like fun)... This is enough for me.
The simple fact I carry at all is my advantage. I will never be known as Billy the Kid when drawing or compete with Jerry Miculik shooting steel. Being a gambling man I won't put my money on the chance I will need to dive under tables and fire while rolling ala Bruce Willis therefor I won't wast time or treasure training for it.
I am of the Keep It Simple, Stupid group. I think had I seen that gentleman in the store it would have been, " Oil that thing up once and a while will ya? If you need it while I'm in this store with you I'd like to be reasonably sure it's going to go BANG!"
As for me, I am much like the shopper in question (at least when I'm not donning a winter hoodie)... I am a "sloppy" concealed carrier. I IWB, either tuck or drape, and step out the door. I will, depending on circumstances, become consious of it and straighten myself, but after that, I don't think about it much.
I believe we're not all on a "mission" or even tactical. There are those here who are of the set that believe too much training is never enough (and you know who you are TXiWXR! ) while I on the other hand, have become quite proficient in carrying, handling and firing my firearm. I've Been to a couple IDPA shoots and will go to more. Will go to the BFA ZOMBIE shoot in the fall (sounds like fun)... This is enough for me.
The simple fact I carry at all is my advantage. I will never be known as Billy the Kid when drawing or compete with Jerry Miculik shooting steel. Being a gambling man I won't put my money on the chance I will need to dive under tables and fire while rolling ala Bruce Willis therefor I won't wast time or treasure training for it.
I am of the Keep It Simple, Stupid group. I think had I seen that gentleman in the store it would have been, " Oil that thing up once and a while will ya? If you need it while I'm in this store with you I'd like to be reasonably sure it's going to go BANG!"
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Re: Concealing vs Covering
As alluded to earlier I'd rather save my scolding and finger wagging for people who get the license but then never or only rarely bother to carry. No good way to spot those folks in a crowd...
Quit worrying, hide your gun well, shut up, and CARRY that handgun!
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Re: Concealing vs Covering
I OCed in Walmart several weeks ago. As I was checking out, a man came up and said my gun was showing. I quickly ran down a list of replies: F/U a la Arnold in Terminator; Mind your own business; So? But chose to point out OC was legal in Ohio. He replied that he just thought I would want to know.
After thinking about it, I became mildly ticked. I mean, OWB wearing a tucked in shirt...how would I NOT know my gun was showing?
When I wear a jacket or un-tucked shirt, it is covered. When it is covered, it is concealed.
After thinking about it, I became mildly ticked. I mean, OWB wearing a tucked in shirt...how would I NOT know my gun was showing?
When I wear a jacket or un-tucked shirt, it is covered. When it is covered, it is concealed.
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Re: Concealing vs Covering
gaptrick wrote: I believe we're not all on a "mission" or even tactical. There are those here who are of the set that believe too much training is never enough (and you know who you are TXiWXR! ) while I on the other hand, have become quite proficient in carrying, handling and firing my firearm. I've Been to a couple IDPA shoots and will go to more. Will go to the BFA ZOMBIE shoot in the fall (sounds like fun)... This is enough for me.
The truth of the matter is that there's a fundamental schism in my own outlook on this: I do not believe that any training should be legally mandated or otherwise made necessary (I would, however, like to see mandatory firearms safety be taught in an age-appropriate manner, in blocks throughout our child's primary school years), but at the same time, I also believe very strongly in training.
I have open-carried before. I will be honest and say that I did not like it while I did it. But that's just me.
My personal feelings on Open Carry are...I wouldn't call it conflicted...rather complex: in much the same way I that I view training.
Allen - Shaker Heights, Ohio
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Re: Concealing vs Covering
OK. Let's take "tactical" back to its original military meaning and contrast it to the other term with which it is often paired: "strategic."
Generally, and militarily, tactics are the actual means used to gain an objective, while strategy is the overall campaign plan. In terms of carrying a firearm, tactics involve anticipation of certain threats, ease of access, the element of surprise, weapon retention, effective shooting techniques, etc. Strategy is the overall effect of being armed in response to physical threats, including criminal attack. So let's look at strategy, rather than tactics, and determine what has been discovered about the general deterrence of criminal behavior by making violent criminals aware that you are armed.
In a study conducted for the National Institute of Justice back in the 1980s, more than 1,600 imprisoned felons were interviewed, and these were their responses:
81% agreed that a smart criminal always tries to find out if his potential victim is armed.
57% agreed that most criminals are more worried about meeting an armed victim than they are about running into the police.
56% agreed that a criminal is not going to mess around with a victim who he knows is armed with a gun.
Are there those who like to take chances? Sure. But only 24% agreed that committing crime against an armed victim is an exciting challenge.
Strategically speaking, I'm willing to play the percentages on this one.
Reference: Wright, James D., Rossi, Peter H., The Armed Criminal in America, U.S. Department of Justice, 1985.
Generally, and militarily, tactics are the actual means used to gain an objective, while strategy is the overall campaign plan. In terms of carrying a firearm, tactics involve anticipation of certain threats, ease of access, the element of surprise, weapon retention, effective shooting techniques, etc. Strategy is the overall effect of being armed in response to physical threats, including criminal attack. So let's look at strategy, rather than tactics, and determine what has been discovered about the general deterrence of criminal behavior by making violent criminals aware that you are armed.
In a study conducted for the National Institute of Justice back in the 1980s, more than 1,600 imprisoned felons were interviewed, and these were their responses:
81% agreed that a smart criminal always tries to find out if his potential victim is armed.
57% agreed that most criminals are more worried about meeting an armed victim than they are about running into the police.
56% agreed that a criminal is not going to mess around with a victim who he knows is armed with a gun.
Are there those who like to take chances? Sure. But only 24% agreed that committing crime against an armed victim is an exciting challenge.
Strategically speaking, I'm willing to play the percentages on this one.
Reference: Wright, James D., Rossi, Peter H., The Armed Criminal in America, U.S. Department of Justice, 1985.
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Open carry is a First Amendment exercise.
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Open carry is a First Amendment exercise.
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Re: Concealing vs Covering
First things first, I think open carry should be perfectly legal.Werz wrote:OK. Let's take "tactical" back to its original military meaning and contrast it to the other term with which it is often paired: "strategic."
Generally, and militarily, tactics are the actual means used to gain an objective, while strategy is the overall campaign plan. In terms of carrying a firearm, tactics involve anticipation of certain threats, ease of access, the element of surprise, weapon retention, effective shooting techniques, etc. Strategy is the overall effect of being armed in response to physical threats, including criminal attack. So let's look at strategy, rather than tactics, and determine what has been discovered about the general deterrence of criminal behavior by making violent criminals aware that you are armed.
In a study conducted for the National Institute of Justice back in the 1980s, more than 1,600 imprisoned felons were interviewed, and these were their responses:
81% agreed that a smart criminal always tries to find out if his potential victim is armed.
57% agreed that most criminals are more worried about meeting an armed victim than they are about running into the police.
56% agreed that a criminal is not going to mess around with a victim who he knows is armed with a gun.
Are there those who like to take chances? Sure. But only 24% agreed that committing crime against an armed victim is an exciting challenge.
Strategically speaking, I'm willing to play the percentages on this one.
Reference: Wright, James D., Rossi, Peter H., The Armed Criminal in America, U.S. Department of Justice, 1985.
For me, strict situational awareness is more of a challenge than it is for some, so I don't open carry unless I am armed with a second gun, and carrying in group e.g. on an organized oc walk or with friends like Chuck, etc.
I think open carry of rifles can do more harm than good when it comes to public opinion.
I think open carry of pistols, when done responsibly and safely can make people think and with the right aditude invites questions about guns, carrying, etc. I think the gun rights activism is a good thing, people should get used to the idea that just because you see someone with a gun doesn't mean they are up to no good.
but, just like anything else, Doing things in the wrong way can put people off. Being sensative to that is only smart.