A scenario I had never considered.

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A scenario I had never considered.

Postby Mr. Anderson » Thu Oct 08, 2015 6:32 pm

Hello everyone. It's been awhile. You may or may not remember a little while back (couldn't log in with my original name or recover my password for some reason or another) the story of me being detained and having my firearm seized without cause, simply because the sheriff did not know whether or not my carrying of a firearm was "allowed" since I hold the Florida permit as an Ohio resident. (Mark Anderson... viewtopic.php?f=6&t=61491&hilit=took+gun+have+nice+day&start=300 ) Well that wasn't anything more than a drop in the bucket compared to what I'm going through now, and I feel the need to share this story.

I live (well lived anyway) in an apartment complex so as much as I like to keep to myself and my family, I often have to interact with others wheher I like to or not. The situation starts in mid june, when my son and I had been helping a mother racoon out of the dumpster. It was obviously a mother (full swollen nipples) and obviosly trapped (climbed in, and nothing to climb on to get out). Another resident, who hadn't lived there long, took it upon himself to confront us- and that it the beginning of one of the worst ordeals I've ever been through. The guy approaches us and demands we leave the racoon alone. I explain to him that it is trapped and we're helping it out of the trash, to which he responds that in fact we are "tormenting" it. (I hunt animals- ethically, humanely, and in accordance of the applicable laws) I try to reason with the guy once more, but he clearly is not in the mindframe to be reasoned with- and starts getting beligerant.

An argument ensues in which I tell the guy if he has a problem, to call the police, otherwise, (in not so polite terms, as we have already passed this point) to take a hike. The guy responds that he isn't going anywhere, and if I dont leave, he's going to take the stick I was using to coax the raccoon up a log to freedom, and beat me with it. I told him if he did that, there were going to be some problems. The guy snatches the stick (it was big and heavy) from me and raises it as if he's going to hit me... and out of reaction I started to reach for my firearm at the six o'clock position. He throws the stick and thankfully I did not have to use the gun. He notices now however, that I have a gun. It's no secret that I have guns, as I am frequently seen with them when coming and going with my EDC or my rifles or shotguns when hunting, and have gotten the infamous MWAG calls quite a few times while living there.

The guy goes on to say that he's going to call the cops because I am carrying a concealed weapon. My wife (god bless her lol) had become aware of the situation and had approached to see what the issue was and heard him say this, and responds that it isn't concealed, its legal, and that even if it were- that I have a permit. The guy, for reasons I will fill you in on in a bit, is still not one to be reasoned with and is still growing more beligerant by the second. I tell her to give me her phone, and I'll call the cops. At this moment the guy leaves immediatly. My son and I continue are business, "save" the raccoon and decide to go look for praying mantis' and blackberries. A half hour, maybe 45 minutes later a couple of sheriffs come pulling in and come right at me. My gun still showing, and I know they are likely there for me, I stand there waiting for them to make contact.

We go through the speel- they disarm me, run my name, ask what's going on, etc. I explain the situation- and after checking me out to make sure I'm clean, they tell me what I already know, which is why they were there. They go on to say the guy said I pulled the gun out on him and threatened to kill him. But they also tell me they are aware of the guy, and believed the even was being made up- as they are quite familiar with the guy. The reason they know him, and the reason he isn't one to be reasoned with, is because he's generally known as a trouble maker with an extensive criminal history. He has had problems with many of the other residents, and has a long history of drug and alcohol charges, violence, and the like. He has had mentel health and anger managment evaluations ordered through the courts on a number of occasions. I was even told he called the police on himself at one point, claiming he stole hundreds of dollars worth of alcohol from the local kroger, and the cops came, but were unable to find said alcohol. His record consist of multiple disorderly conducts, drug charges, public intoxications, and the list goes on. The police leave without further incident (aside from confiscating a closed container- (never opened) beer I had purchased and had on me, that I had planned on drinking that evening when it was time to fire up the grill).

For the next few weeks, the guy would purposly come out when he seen my family and I outside- and would taunt and try to provoke- not just me, and not even just me and my wife... but even my five year old son. I was not there when he confronted my wife and son, or I would have taken some sort of action, but throughout all of this, I took the high road and ignored the guy. Ignoring the guy only made him harass us more. At one point, a lady told the apartment manager to go and warn my wife, because the guy was just standing accross the lot starring at her and the kids for nearly an hour and was talking to himself. The manager told her, and she was already aware.

Then on July 4th... while we're packing the car to go picnic and watch the fireworks, he starts with the usual taunting again. He approaches my car as were packing it and my wife starts to say something, but I stop her. I told her ignore the guy, he isn't worth even arguing with and he isn't even a threat- just a loudmouth trying to elicit a reaction. Saying that and then going about our business really {inappropriate language} him off. He sees I have my gun, as usual... and tells me he's going to call the cops. I'm not worried. Hell, this time I hadn't even argued with the guy. We had just finished loading up the car when the police came. Just like last time, I made it clear I knew they were there and there for me. I explained the situation, and just like the last time, they disarmed me and ran my name through the database. Only this time I went to jail. I was arrested on July 4th in front of my wife and two children. Instead of having a picnic and enjoying the holiday weekend with my family, I spent it in a county jail sleeping on a dirty floor getting bit up by bedbugs. I missed work during a most crucial time and almost lost my job. I had to spend every last cent I had and my wife even had to borrow some money to get me out on bond so I could return to work and keep from losing my job. I lost my chance at a huge promotion and pay raise. I was given a protection order and ordered not to have any guns or ammunition, and not to go within a mile of the place my family and I called home for over ten years. Not having anyone to turn (my wife and kids are all I have. I don't associate with others that much and have no other family to go to... I spend my time educating myself in science and technology and reading the news, or as my wife calls it... being a nerd) to and not being allowed home or having anywhere to go, I was essentially homeless and on the street for a few days. My wife and I share a vehicle at the moment. I work 3rd shift, come home and watch the kids while she works 1st, and now I wasn't even allowed home to watch them, or within a mile of my home for that matter. We nearly both lost our jobs.

Eventually a co-worker of hers moved out of their place temporarily and moved in with a friend, so that my wife and I could stay at her place. Thank god this person I never met was kind and caring enough to help us, or I don't know what would have happened. For the next couple of months I sayed in a strangers house... stressed to the max about everything. I could barely make it to work without speeding. My car was towed just minutes before I was to leave for work, and they charged me over $500 for a tow and a day of storage, and a set of jacks they supposedly broke while towing my car. At this point I was already beyond broke after bailing out of jail and losing the time off work. The towing agency was so crooked they blatently broke more than a dozen laws, including letting me retrieve some of my tings from the vehicle like my medication, and the only ten or fifteen dollars I had to my name at the time. Her friend came to the rescue again, and loaned us the money to get my car back. Once again I came within inches of losing my job. A job I have worked so hard to keep that its a story all of its own worth publishing.

The next few weeks were so hard on us emotionally and financially that I felt like I was losing it. The constant fear of going to jail and losing everything I've worked for... my car, my home, my job... and being the poorest I'd been since I was a teenager in high school really took a toll on me. I had no money for a lawyer and spent whatever time I wasn't at work reading Ohio laws and procedures. I was so broke, at one point my son wanted a happy meal and I had five dollars to my name but needed to buy gas. I broke down. I couldn't even by my son a happy meal. I got a public defender initially, who backed out due to a conflict of interest. They had information that would help my case, but it was obtained while representing the ALLEGED victim in one of his many cases. I was referred to a specialy appointed public defender who refused to communicate with me about my case in any type of constructive way. The guy questioned why I wanted his email address and I didn't even get to meet the guy until my trial date. He kept pressuring me into taking an amended charge of attempted aggravated meancing, despite there being no direct evidence. He argued with me saying the gun was direct evidence... not circumstancial as I claimed, and despite the fact I had done nothing at all. He said I might just get probation and maybe a little jail time, and MIGHT even get my gun back. The gun was the least of my concerns, but the mere fact that he was not trying to defend me in any type of way, and that I had no money for a non court appointed lawyer just added to the problems. He kept referring to the guy as "the victim", even in front of the judge. He told me at one point "I listened to the guys story, and he sounds pretty convincing". He tried poking holes in every defense I had. He didn't secure any of the 911 calls or body camera recodings. In the police report of the second incident, it said I had stated the guy and I had a verbal argument, which matched the guys story... I told the officer there was NOT even an argument, I never argued with him, and that I refused to acknowledge him, hence just one of the many reasons the tapes are important. The only information I was able to obtain about the alligations is: that there was an argument caused when he confronted me about torturing a raccoon and that I pulled my gun out on him and pulled the trigger, but the gun only clicked... he then drew a stick figure of the gun and wrote that that was what the gun looked like and that he belives it was a 45 or a 9mm. The fact that its been documented every time I've ever been stopped that I had a round chambered meant nothing to the lawyer. Even the fact that this guys story replicated more or less THE SAME STORY given to cops just a few weeks prior meant nothing to the lawyer. And this went on.

He tried to get me to waive my right to a speedy trial. Given that I hadn't been able to go home in months, yet was still paying rent, meant nothing to him and neither did the fact that I didnt want this ordeal to be drawn out for who knows how long. On the trial date the victim was not there, and he filed for a 3 week continuance despite my demand that he not. I then told the judge that I did not believe he was representing my best interest, and would like to continue pro se'. Not only was I effectively denied my right to a speedy trial, I was also denied the right to represent myself.

When I kept pushing for discovery and to have the recordings pulled, he said he could get me just disorderly conduct and probation, but probably not the gun. I refused and told him once again that I refused to take ANY type of plea at all and that I was not even interested in entertaining the suggestion of a plea. I said I wanted a jury trial and as soon as possible. He told me a jury was the wrong way to go and to just have a bench trial. I tried to pull the recordings myself and was denied... without even being given a reason or the legal authority for them refuse a public record, other than the claim that the SGT listened to the recording and felt the guy was scared for his life, and so to protect him, I was not going to get the recordings. Protect him from what? I already knew who he was and what (generally) his claims were.

There's a lot more to this story and the problems I've endured but I need to get a few hours of sleep before work. I'll say this though... even when the victim wasn't there a second time... rather than ask to proceed with the trial, or even give me an answer to how many days were left according to the speedy trial statutes (which I am guessing is just two or three days, taking into considerartion his motion for a continuance) he asked to have the case dismissed... with prejiduce. And later I read on the court dockets that it was recomended by the prosecutor. He then proceeds to tell me they can reinstate the charges any time they want to. So much for not having that uncertainty hanging over my head. He has withdrawn from my case now, and I can't get my handgun back without a court order. He didn't even seek to have my firearm returned after dismissal, depite that being the only shred of "evidence" of this guy's story.

Moral of the story... you tell me.
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Re: A scenario I had never considered.

Postby MyWifeSaidYes » Thu Oct 08, 2015 10:31 pm

I'd tell the cops that I wanted my beer back.
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Re: A scenario I had never considered.

Postby Brian D. » Thu Oct 08, 2015 11:19 pm

Any advice I could give at this point seems too late to be of help.
Quit worrying, hide your gun well, shut up, and CARRY that handgun!

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Re: A scenario I had never considered.

Postby Cruiser » Fri Oct 09, 2015 7:36 am

Your mistake was to let him call the police first.
First rule of a confrontation. "He who calls the Police first, becomes the victim."
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Re: A scenario I had never considered.

Postby deanimator » Fri Oct 09, 2015 8:22 am

Cruiser wrote:Your mistake was to let him call the police first.

His second was not recording the encounter(s).
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Re: A scenario I had never considered.

Postby gfrlaser » Fri Oct 09, 2015 9:09 am

Classic case of 'always call cops first'. Too late for any words of wisdom that would help you. Hindsight is, you could have gotten the protection order first.
Others here in this forum should learn from your story.
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Re: A scenario I had never considered.

Postby Klingon00 » Fri Oct 09, 2015 9:53 am

Wow, what an ordeal and series of unfortunate events. :shock:

deanimator wrote:
Cruiser wrote:Your mistake was to let him call the police first.

His second was not recording the encounter(s).


^This. I think had someone been harassing me like that, I would want every single interaction recorded.

Also, no raccoon would be worth risking my life or the life of my family over. Crazy dude starts threatening harm, I'm not sticking around in some dumpster with my child at potential risk. At that point, I would rather call the police to handle the belligerent man threatening violence and then contact animal control or the apartment management and let the raccoon be their problem to deal with.

For me, the moral of the story is: Avoid arguments with potentially violent crazy folks over something like a raccoon in a dumpster.
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Re: A scenario I had never considered.

Postby Curzyk » Fri Oct 09, 2015 10:02 am

I hate to be the one to point this out, but is this another disadvantage to open carry?

Edit #1: Also, wouldn't this constitute a failure of the duty to retreat?
An argument ensues in which I tell the guy if he has a problem, to call the police, otherwise, (in not so polite terms, as we have already passed this point) to take a hike. The guy responds that he isn't going anywhere, and if I dont leave, he's going to take the stick I was using to coax the raccoon up a log to freedom, and beat me with it. I told him if he did that, there were going to be some problems. The guy snatches the stick (it was big and heavy) from me and raises it as if he's going to hit me... and out of reaction I started to reach for my firearm at the six o'clock position.


Edit #2: Out of all of this, couldn't you file for a protection order against the crazy guy, especially if you could establish a pattern of harassment and threats?
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Re: A scenario I had never considered.

Postby idoncare » Fri Oct 09, 2015 12:07 pm

Curzyk wrote:I hate to be the one to point this out, but is this another disadvantage to open carry?

Edit #1: Also, wouldn't this constitute a failure of the duty to retreat?
An argument ensues in which I tell the guy if he has a problem, to call the police, otherwise, (in not so polite terms, as we have already passed this point) to take a hike. The guy responds that he isn't going anywhere, and if I dont leave, he's going to take the stick I was using to coax the raccoon up a log to freedom, and beat me with it. I told him if he did that, there were going to be some problems. The guy snatches the stick (it was big and heavy) from me and raises it as if he's going to hit me... and out of reaction I started to reach for my firearm at the six o'clock position.



IMHO, there is no disadvantage to open carry.

Also, IMHO, he only had a duty to retreat prior to using deadly force, which he obviously didn't use, and then only do so safely. Might be difficult to do with a small child in tow, being chased by a maniac with a club.

The only failure I can see other than not recording the incident, is not being the first to call .

Just my opinion, as IANAL. I'm sure someone more versed in the law than I will be along shortly to correct me if I am wrong :lol:
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Re: A scenario I had never considered.

Postby Klingon00 » Fri Oct 09, 2015 2:14 pm

I've gotta give kudos to Mr. Anderson for not just rolling over and allowing himself be steamrolled. It doesn't sound like there was any real evidence. Amazing that this case went as far as it did...
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Re: A scenario I had never considered.

Postby deanimator » Fri Oct 09, 2015 6:36 pm

Klingon00 wrote:I think had someone been harassing me like that, I would want every single interaction recorded.

A few years ago, I was doing some photographic work for a lawyer friend. A small group of radical anti-abortionists were TRYING to cause a traffic accident by blocking the view from the driveway of an office building with a Planned Parenthood office in it. I was taking photos for evidence. A couple of them came over and tried [unsuccessfully] to pick a fight with me. I never said a word to either of them, but was audio recording the whole time. As usual, I was armed, which they didn't know... although somebody with two brain cells to rub together might have thought twice about trying to provoke a fight with somebody wearing an NRA handgun instructor's cap and reading a book on machine guns...

My friend called a meeting, at which he played my recording. The regular protesters conferred briefly and told the nutcases to hit the road. Hard to say what might have happened without the recording.
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Re: A scenario I had never considered.

Postby steves 50de » Fri Oct 09, 2015 7:02 pm

deanimator wrote:
Klingon00 wrote:I think had someone been harassing me like that, I would want every single interaction recorded.

A few years ago, I was doing some photographic work for a lawyer friend. A small group of radical anti-abortionists were TRYING to cause a traffic accident by blocking the view from the driveway of an office building with a Planned Parenthood office in it. I was taking photos for evidence. A couple of them came over and tried [unsuccessfully] to pick a fight with me. I never said a word to either of them, but was audio recording the whole time. As usual, I was armed, which they didn't know... although somebody with two brain cells to rub together might have thought twice about trying to provoke a fight with somebody wearing an NRA handgun instructor's cap and reading a book on machine guns...

My friend called a meeting, at which he played my recording. The regular protesters conferred briefly and told the nutcases to hit the road. Hard to say what might have happened without the recording.

Did you walk over to rustic and get a bit to eat they have good food. :wink: :lol:
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Re: A scenario I had never considered.

Postby CroManGun » Sat Oct 10, 2015 1:11 am

deanimator wrote:
Cruiser wrote:Your mistake was to let him call the police first.

His second was not recording the encounter(s).

It appears to me that Mr. Anderson was played by both the "victim" and the system. He needs to learn to look out for HIS own interests when involved in confrontations with others. At the first sign of things going south, call 911 to go on record as the aggrieved party. After the first run in with the wacko, I would have made sure to record EVERY subsequent interaction with him.
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Re: A scenario I had never considered.

Postby deanimator » Sat Oct 10, 2015 5:03 am

steves 50de wrote:Did you walk over to rustic and get a bit to eat they have good food. :wink: :lol:

They're not terrible, but I greatly prefer Michael's on Detroit. They're GREAT, and really look good inside after the remodeling.
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Re: A scenario I had never considered.

Postby steves 50de » Sat Oct 10, 2015 6:54 pm

deanimator wrote:
steves 50de wrote:Did you walk over to rustic and get a bit to eat they have good food. :wink: :lol:

They're not terrible, but I greatly prefer Michael's on Detroit. They're GREAT, and really look good inside after the remodeling.

I will check it out.
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