2323.30 - Discharging weapons

Use this forum to post your experience with encounters with law enforcement, criminals, or other encounters as a result of your firearm or potential to be carrying one.

Moderators: Coordinators, Moderators

2323.30 - Discharging weapons

Postby TheLawOwnsMe » Tue Aug 18, 2015 3:45 pm

I was recently charged under this Municipal Code Ordinance. I'm trying to understand the "Strict Liability" under that statute.

Background: (I know this is ridiculous) I went to a famed taco stand in Columbus, that's in a shadier neighborhood. To be specific I was in this parking lot, getting lunch from the taco truck at the end. As you can see that's not an easy egress point:

http://bit.ly/1URhE4x

Anyway, I was in my truck eating my delicious tacos when a guy came up to the passenger side and started knocking on my window harder than I'd like, asking for change. I got nervous over the interaction, the difficult exit, and the fact that he walked up to a group of other homeless guys and started ranting. So I chambered one in my 9mm (I have my CCW). I never have one chambered. I'm not arguing the logic, but more the point out that I'm not someone that was irresponsibly living on the edge of this happening.

I eventually left and went to store forgetting that I had chambered a round. Upon leaving the store and getting in my truck, I remembered and decided to take the one out the chamber. For legal reasons it makes less sense for me to get into what I remember of this. Suffice to say, I moved my hand in its direction and it went off. It shot me in the foot. It was so jarring that I don't remember clearly what happen next. Nobody noticed what happen. The cops confirmed there was no call regarding gun shots. Eventually, I sought out the police who were up the street and got an ambulance ride. I was charged under 2323.30, although the police were exceedingly nice and helpful given the circumstance. Columbus PD has always been fantastic, even here.

I just don't understand strict liability for this situation. I get it for statutory rape, because you had a chance to ID the person so regardless of how you didn't know their age, you had a shot. Same with speeding. You have control over whether you speed, regardless of whether you intended to. Your gauges better be right and foot light (pun).

Here, I really wouldn't say that I discharged or caused the gun to be discharged. That would mean I meant to shoot it in the direction of my foot. What if something fell into place causing it to go off. What if the gun had fallen and went off? I've never seen the firearm so i don't know if there was a malfunction of the firearm or cartridge. I know for a fact that manual safety failed. Is this one of those situation where there's no legal defense to the crime, but it's really more the prosecutor's discretion whether your activity is the type the ordinance meant to address? Is there a legal defense here?


2323.30 - Discharging weapons.

(A) No person shall discharge or cause to be discharged any firearm, airgun or other instrument used to explode any cartridge or thing filled with any explosive substance or material. For purposes of this section, firearm has the same meaning as used in Section 2923.11(B) of the Ohio Revised Code.

(B) This section shall not apply to:

(1) Devices in which paper caps containing twenty-five hundredths (0.25) grains or less of explosive compound are used, (providing they are so constructed that the hand cannot come in contact with the cap when in place for the explosion), and toy pistol paper caps which contain less than twenty hundredths (0.20) grains of explosive mixture;

(2) A law enforcement officer in the lawful performance of the officer's duties;

(3) Discharge of a weapon when acting in self-defense or defense of another, including as provided in Section 2901.05(B) of the Ohio Revised Code;

(4) Situations in which the firearm was discharged or was on or about the person or under the control of a person in the commission of a felony for which the Revised Code requires a term of imprisonment pursuant to Section 2929.14(D) of the Revised Code;

(C) [Reserved.]

(D) Whoever violates this section is guilty of discharging weapons, a misdemeanor of the third degree.

(E) Strict liability is intended to be imposed for violation of this section.

(Ord. 2535-94; Ord. No. 1468-2011, § 5, 9-26-2011)
TheLawOwnsMe
 
Posts: 2
Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2015 1:33 pm

Re: 2323.30 - Discharging weapons

Postby sabalo » Tue Aug 18, 2015 5:00 pm

Say nothing to the cops. Get an attorney. I recommend Derek DeBrosse in Columbus.
======================================================
The beatings will continue until morale improves !

"It's bowb your buddy week."
Harry Harrison - DEATHWORLD

Let's all remember that 9 Bengals were arrested in a 9 month period !
(Source-ESPN)

Jerk Herder®
User avatar
sabalo
OFCC Coordinator
OFCC Coordinator
 
Posts: 6071
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 12:32 am
Location: Thornville, Ohio

Re: 2323.30 - Discharging weapons

Postby pirateguy191 » Tue Aug 18, 2015 5:23 pm

Suffice to say, I moved my hand in its direction and it went off. It shot me in the foot.


You pulled the trigger, it didn't go off. I'm sorry this happened, but...........
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem." - Ronald Reagan

"When democracy turns to tyranny, the armed citizen still gets to vote." ~ Mike Vanderboegh

NRA member, NRA basic pistol instructor, DBACB
User avatar
pirateguy191
 
Posts: 10749
Joined: Sat Feb 14, 2009 12:06 pm
Location: 44146

Re: 2323.30 - Discharging weapons

Postby Sevens » Tue Aug 18, 2015 6:27 pm

FACEPALM.
if you ever get this sorted out and you heal, please seek training. You are an obviously intelligent person, your ability to write a coherent post is evidence of this but you need help in the handling of firearms and the thought process involved with carrying them for defensive use.
I like to swap brass... and I'm looking for .32 H&R Mag, .327 Fed Mag, .380 Auto and 10mm. If you have some and would like to swap for something else, send me a note!
User avatar
Sevens
OFCC Patron Member
OFCC Patron Member
 
Posts: 7401
Joined: Thu May 07, 2009 8:30 am
Location: Far East Side of CBus

Re: 2323.30 - Discharging weapons

Postby Aesinsp » Tue Aug 18, 2015 8:29 pm

Thank you for having the courage to speak up.. I couldn't image what you are dealing with.. I was someone that didn't carry chambered at first. Training cleared that up for me.
That being said, BEFORE you heal - (as already said) sign yourself up for training. Local, far, cheap, expensive.. Just do it.
It didn't 'go off' without some input on your part. Accept that and move on, but with additional hands on training.

Posted here before in various ways:

Jeff Cooper's Rules of Gun Safety(emphasis in bold)

RULE I: ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED

RULE II: NEVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO DESTROY

RULE III: KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER UNTIL YOUR SIGHTS ARE ON THE TARGET

RULE IV: BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET
Thank you for sharing your experience, strength, hope and/or thoughts.
The enemy's goal is chaos and division.. United we stand - divided we fall.
We're ALL in this together. No one gets out alive.
Got coyotes? Contact me.
Aesinsp
OFCC Patron Member
OFCC Patron Member
 
Posts: 939
Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2012 8:27 am
Location: Central Ohio

Re: 2323.30 - Discharging weapons

Postby ArmedAviator » Tue Aug 18, 2015 8:59 pm

Speaking with a lawyer familiar with these laws is your best bet.

As others have stated, I'm sorry to hear what happened to you but you should really seek proper training and revise your method of carry accordingly. Of one thing I am certain, you pulled the trigger - the gun did not malfunction.

I hope you have a quick and full recovery.
Peace through superior firepower
User avatar
ArmedAviator
 
Posts: 989
Joined: Wed Jul 18, 2012 5:59 pm
Location: 45342

Re: 2323.30 - Discharging weapons

Postby TheLawOwnsMe » Tue Aug 18, 2015 9:09 pm

I feel you about the training. I'm not above it. I could get all defensive about what happen and whether it was "my fault." However, what's the point. With this kind of thing, there's no "win" in a successful "really it wasn't my fault" because you lose if you believe it was just a freak accident and forgive yourself. However, by way of context I have one of these:

http://bit.ly/1WDkMTe

It's no excuse, but the way I wear that is on my lower body and those wires cross my CCW by necessity (In my mind, but I'll seek advice and more training). It's ironic because I started carrying because of the vulnerability I feel with such sensitive stuff attached to me. I'm just not able to roll around on the ground with some stranger with anger issues anymore. I die if someone punches me in the chest or snags a wire.

I'm going to take the training comments to heart (no pun). It was the shock of my life. However, whether you believe it or not its really debatable about "how" that trigger pull came to pass.

I'm just wondering if anyone has an idea of the legal issues around 2323.30. It's not that I'm not looking to take responsibility, but it seems incompatible with "justice" that I'll have a criminal record for something like this. I understand the public safety element of the offense, but sometimes you have to look at the person and situation. Additionally, you have to look at what the "actual" result was. I suffered the consequence of my bad preparedness and thoughtfulness in deciding how to carry. I may be stupid, but do you feel like I've acted criminally?
TheLawOwnsMe
 
Posts: 2
Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2015 1:33 pm

Re: 2323.30 - Discharging weapons

Postby schmieg » Tue Aug 18, 2015 11:09 pm

First off, don't post anything more about the case on a public forum. Second, consult with an attorney familiar with gun laws (Derek DeBrose was suggested and is a good option). Third, if the gun is not confiscated and ordered forfeit by the court, have it checked by a competent gunsmith, especially if you are sure you didn't put your booger hook on the bangstick. It isn't common, but there are mechanical failures once in a while that will cause an accidental discharge (as opposed to the more common negligent discharge).

You might want to take a look at this thread:
http://ohioccwforums.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=73594
-- Mike

"The smallest minority on earth is the individual. Those who deny individual rights cannot claim to be defenders of minorities." - Ayn Rand
User avatar
schmieg
OFCC Coordinator
OFCC Coordinator
 
Posts: 5161
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 11:11 pm
Location: Madeira, Ohio

Re: 2323.30 - Discharging weapons

Postby Sevens » Tue Aug 18, 2015 11:14 pm

I definitely don't think you acted criminally -- and of course, that definitely doesn't matter.
I like to swap brass... and I'm looking for .32 H&R Mag, .327 Fed Mag, .380 Auto and 10mm. If you have some and would like to swap for something else, send me a note!
User avatar
Sevens
OFCC Patron Member
OFCC Patron Member
 
Posts: 7401
Joined: Thu May 07, 2009 8:30 am
Location: Far East Side of CBus

Re: 2323.30 - Discharging weapons

Postby MyWifeSaidYes » Wed Aug 19, 2015 1:28 am

To answer the original question:

"In tort law, strict liability is the imposition of liability on a party without a finding of fault (such as negligence or tortious intent). The claimant need only prove that the tort occurred and that the defendant was responsible. The law imputes strict liability to situations it considers to be inherently dangerous."

Ohio law allows municipalities to regulate the discharge of firearms.

Columbus code allows an exception to 2323.30 for valid self-defense.

If you shot yourself in the foot, sought out police officers and TOLD them you shot yourself in the foot, then I have only one question...

Did you shoot yourself in the foot OUTSIDE COLUMBUS CITY LIMITS and drag yourself back within city limits to seek help?

By the way, don't answer that question here. :wink:
MyWifeSaidYes
User avatar
MyWifeSaidYes
OFCC Coordinator
OFCC Coordinator
 
Posts: 5406
Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2010 12:59 pm
Location: Central Ohio

Re: 2323.30 - Discharging weapons

Postby Chuck » Wed Aug 19, 2015 5:26 am

First of all, I offer my services as an instructor.

Secondly, WELCOME to the forums

Thirdly, I highly recommend Derek Debrosse as a lawyer
Having seen him in action personally, I can tell you he is worth every penny of his fee

Lastly, think of it as running a stop sign and hitting a tree and injuring yourself
You're going to be charged,,,,
Ain't activism fun?

"Associate with men of good quality if you esteem your own reputation; for it is better to be alone than in bad company. " - George Washington

"I am only one, but I am one. I cannot do everything, but I can do something.
And because I can not do everything, I will not refuse to do the something I can do.
What I can do, I should do. And what I should do, by the grace of GOD, I will do."
- Edward Everett Hale (descendant of Nathan Hale)
User avatar
Chuck
OFCC Director
OFCC Director
 
Posts: 4433
Joined: Mon Nov 16, 2009 7:06 am
Location: Licking County

Re: 2323.30 - Discharging weapons

Postby carmen fovozzo » Wed Aug 19, 2015 7:07 am

Hind sight...but just maybe if you carried with one in the chamber all the time this would not of happened..
Life is full of God given coincidences..
A MEMBER OF OFCC SINCE 2004...
carmen fovozzo
OFCC Patron Member
OFCC Patron Member
 
Posts: 18324
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2007 11:08 am
Location: NEO

Re: 2323.30 - Discharging weapons

Postby Brian D. » Wed Aug 19, 2015 8:06 am

What make/model is the gun ?
Quit worrying, hide your gun well, shut up, and CARRY that handgun!

********************************************************************************
1911 and Browning Hi Power Enthusianado.
Brian D.
 
Posts: 14807
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 8:42 pm
Location: SW Ohio

Re: 2323.30 - Discharging weapons

Postby pjmurph » Thu Aug 20, 2015 12:42 pm

TheLawOwnsMe wrote:Upon leaving the store and getting in my truck, I remembered and decided to take the one out the chamber. For legal reasons it makes less sense for me to get into what I remember of this. Suffice to say, I moved my hand in its direction and it went off. It shot me in the foot. Here, I really wouldn't say that I discharged or caused the gun to be discharged. That would mean I meant to shoot it in the direction of my foot. What if something fell into place causing it to go off. What if the gun had fallen and went off?..... I've never seen the firearm so i don't know if there was a malfunction of the firearm or cartridge. I know for a fact that manual safety failed.



You absolutely caused the gun to discharge. Saying that "it shot me in the foot" is the same as gun grabbers saying that those assault weapons are evil. YOU shot YOURSELF in the foot, do not blame an inanimate object for your negligence. You may not have intentionally fired the round but you absolutely caused that round to fire, due to negligence. I'm not sure what you mean by you have never seen the firearm. Also, the manual safety did what you made it do. Would you blame your parking break for failing when you left your car in neutral on a hillside?

Many NDs occur as a result of unnecessary handling of a loaded weapon, which appears to be the case in this situation. My best guess of the events is as follows:
You remembered that you had a round chambered and wished to remove it. Your firearm has a manual safety, and many firearms require the manual safety to be disengaged in order to rack the slide. You disengaged the manual safety and attempted to remove the round from the chamber. You likely put your finger inside the trigger guard and onto the trigger as you went to rack the slide. You tensed up as you went to rack the slide and in doing so pulled the trigger, discharging the firearm sending the round downward and into your foot.

As stated above, there is a possibility of a mechanical malfunction in your firearm, but that is the exception not the rule. Based on your explanation of the situation and your handling of your firearm I would guess that you fall under the category of "the rule".
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing" -Edmund Burke

"Punishment is now unfashionable... because it creates moral distinctions among men, which, to the democratic mind, are odious. We prefer a meaningless collective guilt to a meaningful individual responsibility." -Thomas Szasz
User avatar
pjmurph
 
Posts: 120
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2012 10:45 pm
Location: Cincinnati

Re: 2323.30 - Discharging weapons

Postby schmieg » Thu Aug 20, 2015 1:09 pm

There is an ongoing criminal case here. The OP should not be saying anything without counsel's approval and attempting to get him to admit anything is not helpful. We really shouldn't be discussing this until facts are know and, if the OP is smart, no more facts will be known until the case gets to trial. I think this should be locked if this continues.
-- Mike

"The smallest minority on earth is the individual. Those who deny individual rights cannot claim to be defenders of minorities." - Ayn Rand
User avatar
schmieg
OFCC Coordinator
OFCC Coordinator
 
Posts: 5161
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 11:11 pm
Location: Madeira, Ohio

Next

Return to Real Life Encounters

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests