Pulled over for a search?

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bearkitty
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Pulled over for a search?

Post by bearkitty »

I don't understand this, and it's 2nd hand info at this point, but I wanted to get some ideas on what I can or cannot (should or should not) do about this:

I've spoken here on OFCC a few times about my kids driving cars that are titled and registered to me, thus my CHL status follows them around. My daughter recently bought a new car on her own, so I have 'hers' back and am thinking about selling it. To that end, I let a prospective buyer take it to her mechanic/Dad yesterday evening for a look over.

She got pulled over. By a K9 officer. And searched. She swears the reason for the stop was expressly stated to her at the beginning as a "Search For CCW". She had her kids in the car and was scared out of her mind, so she agreed to the search. The K9 sniff tested the car, and then she was asked to exit the vehicle so the dog could sniff her too. She tells me that after the search turned up nothing she was given a verbal warning to replace the rear license lamp.

????????

My mind is all over the place here........

1) Is she telling me the truth? Is there any way I can find out? It's a small town so I shouldn't have trouble locating the officer should I decide to call and ask questions - if I even have any right to ask questions.

2) If it is true - what then? I didn't think LEO was in the business of initiating such stops.

3) Can a K9 even smell a gun? lol.

Thoughts or advice on if I should pursue this?

Thanks!!
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BobK
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Re: Pulled over for a search?

Post by BobK »

If the rear license plate light was actually burned out, then the officer is allowed to make a stop. Neither the license plate light nor the concealed handgun licensee status are sufficient reason for a non-consensual search. However, she consented to the search, so it was legal.

The woman should file a written complaint based on the "search for CCW" reason stated. That is objectionable.
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bearkitty
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Re: Pulled over for a search?

Post by bearkitty »

Yeah, I get that the search was legal.

I'm WAY more honked off about it than she is. The officer clearly knew up front that it wasn't me driving. Was he just exercising the dog or hoping to take this poor girl to jail?

What if it had been me behind the wheel? I would have notified of course, but would he still have wanted to initiate a "serarch for CCW" on me? What for at that point? That's also why I'm not 100% sure she has the facts straight.

Oh, well. I might network a little with some LEO friends down there and see what I can find out about last night's stop.
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fisher
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Re: Pulled over for a search?

Post by fisher »

Which police department was it?
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bearkitty
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Re: Pulled over for a search?

Post by bearkitty »

fisher wrote:Which police department was it?

PM sent
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Re: Pulled over for a search?

Post by JediSkipdogg »

Dogs can't search for guns and they are not trained on gunpowder unless they are bomb dogs at which point they generally aren't making routine traffic stops and searches of vehicles. What I would do is call the department and see if there is video available (either cruiser cam or body cam) and request that. That will tell you where the truth is.
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Re: Pulled over for a search?

Post by TJW815 »

JediSkipdogg wrote:Dogs can't search for guns and they are not trained on gunpowder unless they are bomb dogs at which point they generally aren't making routine traffic stops and searches of vehicles. What I would do is call the department and see if there is video available (either cruiser cam or body cam) and request that. That will tell you where the truth is.
I believe dogs can be trained for both drugs and explosives or exclusive to one or the other per dog.

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Re: Pulled over for a search?

Post by JediSkipdogg »

TJW815 wrote:
JediSkipdogg wrote:Dogs can't search for guns and they are not trained on gunpowder unless they are bomb dogs at which point they generally aren't making routine traffic stops and searches of vehicles. What I would do is call the department and see if there is video available (either cruiser cam or body cam) and request that. That will tell you where the truth is.
I believe dogs can be trained for both drugs and explosives or exclusive to one or the other per dog.

http://k9gta.com/detection-dogs
They generally will never train for both narcotics and explosives because there are too many scents and there is an effective limit for a dog's ability. The last thing you would want is the dog to miss the C4 planted under the stage when requested because he was trained for narcotics as well. They will train for patrol and explosives but when you see the term patrol they are talking suspect tracking and apprehension and not drug detection.

There is also the huge safety aspect of dual training. When a dog cues that he has found a scent the handler then has to act appropriately. In the case of drugs, they simply pick them up. In the case of explosives, they back away and call the bomb squad in. There are numerous cases in the 90s where handlers were killed because the dog gave the wrong cue. Therefore the well known agencies stopped training dogs to detect both because you have exceeded the ability of the dog to give a different cue for a different scent.

I also believe now federal mandates by the Department of Homeland Security, which controls most explosive detection dogs across the country, will not allow funding for dual purpose dogs. However, if you train on just explosives, there are numerous grants available, as long as one realizes they are at the beck and call of DHS by using that grant.
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djthomas
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Re: Pulled over for a search?

Post by djthomas »

TJW815 wrote:I believe dogs can be trained for both drugs and explosives or exclusive to one or the other per dog.
That's true but it's highly unusual to find patrol dogs trained in explosives. There's only a limited number of scents they can be reliably trained on so departments tend to go with what they are most likely to encounter: drugs. Now if it was a K-9 assigned to a transit authority there's a very good chance it would be trained in explosives. But there is a difference between gunpowder and explosives, and you're not usually going to find RTA officers making traffic stops in a small town.

But lets say the dog was trained to hit on gunpowder and did same. That's not going to be probable cause for anything because gunpowder is not per se illegal. That would be like saying the dog hit on a piece of fruit in your car, therefore we can search it further. Unless you're at a customs or agricultural inspection point such a "hit" would be meaningless.

As to OP's original question - yes you have every right to ask any question you want. Whether they will answer you is another matter. About the only right that you don't have would be the right to file a formal complaint on behalf of the prospective buyer.
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Re: Pulled over for a search?

Post by Werz »

bearkitty wrote:She got pulled over. By a K9 officer. And searched. She swears the reason for the stop was expressly stated to her at the beginning as a "Search For CCW". She had her kids in the car and was scared out of her mind, so she agreed to the search. The K9 sniff tested the car, and then she was asked to exit the vehicle so the dog could sniff her too. She tells me that after the search turned up nothing she was given a verbal warning to replace the rear license lamp.
If she is telling you the truth, you have an officer who is operating far outside recognized standards.
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Re: Pulled over for a search?

Post by JediSkipdogg »

Werz wrote:
bearkitty wrote:She got pulled over. By a K9 officer. And searched. She swears the reason for the stop was expressly stated to her at the beginning as a "Search For CCW". She had her kids in the car and was scared out of her mind, so she agreed to the search. The K9 sniff tested the car, and then she was asked to exit the vehicle so the dog could sniff her too. She tells me that after the search turned up nothing she was given a verbal warning to replace the rear license lamp.
If she is telling you the truth, you have an officer who is operating far outside recognized standards.
Good thing you mentioned that as well. I meant to hit on that. I'm not aware of any police dogs searching a "person." That is far from common practice and actually quite dangerous. One of the top rules is to remain all occupants from the areas prior to being searched as to not interfere with the dog. So she should have been removed prior to him sniffing the vehicle.

Then rarely will they ever sniff a person. Only a passive alert dog should ever be used to do this and it can still be quite dangerous. If the person being sniffed flinches (which some people do around dogs) then the dog could take that as a threat and attack. That is a lawsuit no department wants to get in as it is generally an automatic loss, and a huge one at that.

So as Werz said, he would be operating outside of recognized standards for police K9s.
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Re: Pulled over for a search?

Post by steves 50de »

This reminds me to remove my glock in my other cars console because she may need to drive it as i'am taking her car to columbus tomorrow for the legal seminar. :roll:

if she was arrested i would need to find a new place to live. :lol:
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Re: Pulled over for a search?

Post by TJW815 »

I think your potential buyer is embellishing a bit. If you'd like I would be happy to do a records request for you.
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Re: Pulled over for a search?

Post by bearkitty »

Thank you all for taking time to give your insights.

Again - my head is really all over the place wondering what really happened, flipping the script to what if it had been me behind the wheel, and whether or not anything out of bounds really took place.

I've PM'd the PD name to a few of you. On the chance that this is not what it seems, I hesitate to name that PD publicly. That LEO might very well be a member of these forums and I'm sure in light of recent events you'll all appreciate me giving due consideration of the source of this info. I did talk to her several times today during purchase negotiations and her story remains the same no matter how I ask it, or in what order I ask it. I'm no investigator....just a mom of teens and know a few tricks.

It looks like I'll be working on securing some records just in case she's THAT good a liar. I'd love to exonerate Mr. K9 officer.

RIP CPD Ofc Sonny Kim!! My Granny lived about a block away from where this happened and I spent many weekends and holidays there. All of my thoughts and prayers go out to the family, friends, and coworkers of this HERO.
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Re: Pulled over for a search?

Post by Sevens »

I am generally very much on the side of LE. For many reasons including my formative years in shooting and my own personal interaction with LE and the different life long friends I've made as an adult. But what I have read here has just angered me and I would love to see how this all turns out. And it would seem to me that decent, high quality LEO feel the same way or more so.

steves 50de wrote:This reminds me to remove my glock in my other cars console because she may need to drive it as i'am taking her car to columbus tomorrow for the legal seminar. :roll:

if she was arrested i would need to find a new place to live. :lol:
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