Valuable lesson on condition 3.

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Just One Shot
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Valuable lesson on condition 3.

Post by Just One Shot »

This past weekend we had an incident that makes me question why anyone would carry in condition 3 (chamber empty with loaded mag in gun). We've been having an issue with the neighbor's German Shepard acting aggressive toward our Pug for a few weeks. I've had to call the Dog Warden and the Police because of the Shepard pinning our Pug to the ground but he has never bitten him.

This past Saturday that all changed. It was after dark and the wife had put our Pug on the cable anchored in our back yard so he could do his business one last time for the day, moments later I hear the wife screaming so I grabbed my G17 and ran to see what was going on. When I got to the back door I found out that the Shepard had charged our Pug and bit him on his hind quarter as he was running to the back door trying to get away. The wife had gotten our Pug in the door and the Shepard was trying to come though the door to continue his attack.

I forced my way out side to try and scare the dog off, usually the Shepard would move away when I go outside, this time he headed for home but as soon as I stepped of my porch he turned and ran around me to try and get through the door the get back at our Pug. At this point I was furious and racked the slide to chamber a round and started yelling. The dog turned away because of the noise from me screaming and the fact that the Pug was behind the closed storm door. By now I had the gun leveled at the dog focusing on the front sight when the neighbor's baby sitter started yelling "I'm sorry" over and over again which distracted me, Once I realized the dog was no longer a threat and there was a person to the right of where I was aiming I lowered my gun. The situation has now been resolved with the dog (he no longer lives next door) and our neighbor has already made a payment for the vet bill.

The past few days I have been reflecting on on what happened. I always carry cocked and locked and normally I have one chambered in my house gun but I had the G17 sitting beside me in my chair in a holster with the chamber empty, we had two of our grandchildren spending the night and I remember thinking I would have time to chamber a round should I need it especially since we were behind locked doors and it would take a few minutes for someone to get in before they would be an immediate threat.

Once there was a threat my adrenaline spiked as I rushed to see what was going on, my thoughts were not on my gun, my only concern was to get to my wife as fast as I could. Had the wife not gotten our dog inside the door before the Shepard charged around me, he could have done even more damage as I was wasting time racking the slide on my gun. Granted, it probably only took about a split second to load the gun but, at the speed that the situation escalated it was a split second that I would have needed had the dog been attacking my dog or even my wife. I chalk this up to a valuable lesson learned!
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Brian D.
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Re: Valuable lesson on condition 3.

Post by Brian D. »

When it comes to firearms and how they're kept ready, always seemed to me that the less complicated our methods are the better they work.

Recently had a conversation with a police officer who has lots of guns and goes shooting frequently. He was telling me that he'd lost faith in the 1911 semiautomatic. At the range with family he had tried to put the 1911 into condition two (hammer down on a LOADED chamber) and he had an "accidental" discharge, fortunately without injury to anyone. Said that he then cased up all his guns and sat in his vehicle, embarrassed.

This guy's issue handgun is a Glock, I believe. Totally at home with carrying THAT gun in condition one but had never been able to do so with a 1911. Spent some time trying to get this sorted out with him, mainly because he was laboring under a false assumption or two and complicating the way he did things.

I'm glad that you remembered to charge that chamber under the sudden stress you experienced.
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Just One Shot
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Re: Valuable lesson on condition 3.

Post by Just One Shot »

Yea, I remembered it wasn't loaded just about the time I would have needed it to prevent further damage to my dog (or the wife). Thing is, if the dog had turned on me I wouldn't have had a chance to rack the slide before experiencing some serious pain. I keep 3 of my hand guns holstered in the safe and loaded at all times, the 17 being my house gun is left loaded with an empty chamber because I don't have any more room on the shelf and it hangs by the trigger guard on a hook attached to the inside of the safe door. I would hate to have a ND while removing or hanging it on the hook and I don't like to constantly charge the gun and eject the round causing bullet set back on my self defense rounds. I may have to try and reorganize my safe or bring an old lock box I had mounted in a car I sold and find someplace to bolt it to the floor for the 17 to rest in.
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Metal1
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Re: Valuable lesson on condition 3.

Post by Metal1 »

Just One Shot wrote:This past weekend we had an incident that makes me question why anyone would carry in condition 3 (chamber empty with loaded mag in gun). We've been having an issue with the neighbor's German Shepard acting aggressive toward our Pug for a few weeks. I've had to call the Dog Warden and the Police because of the Shepard pinning our Pug to the ground but he has never bitten him.

This past Saturday that all changed. It was after dark and the wife had put our Pug on the cable anchored in our back yard so he could do his business one last time for the day, moments later I hear the wife screaming so I grabbed my G17 and ran to see what was going on. When I got to the back door I found out that the Shepard had charged our Pug and bit him on his hind quarter as he was running to the back door trying to get away. The wife had gotten our Pug in the door and the Shepard was trying to come though the door to continue his attack.

I forced my way out side to try and scare the dog off, usually the Shepard would move away when I go outside, this time he headed for home but as soon as I stepped of my porch he turned and ran around me to try and get through the door the get back at our Pug. At this point I was furious and racked the slide to chamber a round and started yelling. The dog turned away because of the noise from me screaming and the fact that the Pug was behind the closed storm door. By now I had the gun leveled at the dog focusing on the front sight when the neighbor's baby sitter started yelling "I'm sorry" over and over again which distracted me, Once I realized the dog was no longer a threat and there was a person to the right of where I was aiming I lowered my gun. The situation has now been resolved with the dog (he no longer lives next door) and our neighbor has already made a payment for the vet bill.

The past few days I have been reflecting on on what happened. I always carry cocked and locked and normally I have one chambered in my house gun but I had the G17 sitting beside me in my chair in a holster with the chamber empty, we had two of our grandchildren spending the night and I remember thinking I would have time to chamber a round should I need it especially since we were behind locked doors and it would take a few minutes for someone to get in before they would be an immediate threat.

Once there was a threat my adrenaline spiked as I rushed to see what was going on, my thoughts were not on my gun, my only concern was to get to my wife as fast as I could. Had the wife not gotten our dog inside the door before the Shepard charged around me, he could have done even more damage as I was wasting time racking the slide on my gun. Granted, it probably only took about a split second to load the gun but, at the speed that the situation escalated it was a split second that I would have needed had the dog been attacking my dog or even my wife. I chalk this up to a valuable lesson learned!

What reason for ever going to Condition 2 anyway? Condition Two is problematic for several reasons, and is the source of more negligent discharges than the other conditions. When you rack the slide to chamber a round in the 1911, the hammer is cocked and the manual safety is off. There is no way to avoid this with the 1911 design. In order to lower the hammer, the trigger must be pulled and the hammer lowered slowly with the thumb onto the firing pin, the end of which is only a few millimeters away from the primer of a live round. Should the thumb slip, the hammer would drop and fire the gun. Not only would a round be launched in circumstances which would be at best embarrassing and possibly tragic, but also the thumb would be behind the slide as it cycled, resulting in serious injury to the hand. A second problem with this condition is that the true 1911A1 does not have a firing pin block and an impact on the hammer which is resting on the firing pin could conceivably cause the gun to go off, although actual instances of this are virtually nonexistent. Finally, in order to fire the gun, the hammer must be manually cocked, again with the thumb. In an emergency situation, this adds another opportunity for something to go wrong and slows the acquisition of the sight picture.
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Re: Valuable lesson on condition 3.

Post by Brian D. »

Metal1 wrote:What reason for ever going to Condition 2 anyway? Condition Two is problematic for several reasons, and is the source of more negligent discharges than the other conditions. When you rack the slide to chamber a round in the 1911, the hammer is cocked and the manual safety is off. There is no way to avoid this with the 1911 design. In order to lower the hammer, the trigger must be pulled and the hammer lowered slowly with the thumb onto the firing pin, the end of which is only a few millimeters away from the primer of a live round. Should the thumb slip, the hammer would drop and fire the gun. Not only would a round be launched in circumstances which would be at best embarrassing and possibly tragic, but also the thumb would be behind the slide as it cycled, resulting in serious injury to the hand. A second problem with this condition is that the true 1911A1 does not have a firing pin block and an impact on the hammer which is resting on the firing pin could conceivably cause the gun to go off, although actual instances of this are virtually nonexistent. Finally, in order to fire the gun, the hammer must be manually cocked, again with the thumb. In an emergency situation, this adds another opportunity for something to go wrong and slows the acquisition of the sight picture.
About the only time I'll use condition two is if transporting a spare 1911 or Hi Power etc. while it's in a soft case in the cargo compartment of my vehicle. Generally though that gun is stored back there unloaded. Like you say it's the process of safely getting a 1911/BHP into condition 2 that is problematical, hence I do that very rarely anymore.
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Re: Valuable lesson on condition 3.

Post by gaptrick »

Please allow me to add to the confusion...

I believe the OP was calling his Glock 17, mag in, empty chamber condition 2... Not a 1911's hammer resting on a firing pin pointed at the primer of a live round.


EDIT

I re-read... had my conditions confused with what was written. Sorry. See, I CAN add to the confusion.

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Re: Valuable lesson on condition 3.

Post by Klingon00 »

Brian D. wrote: About the only time I'll use condition two is if transporting a spare 1911 or Hi Power etc. while it's in a soft case in the cargo compartment of my vehicle. Generally though that gun is stored back there unloaded. Like you say it's the process of safely getting a 1911/BHP into condition 2 that is problematical, hence I do that very rarely anymore.
I'm curious as to why you'd risk possibly fumbling a condition 2 here. Seems to me that situations like that is what the safety notch on the hammer is for if you are concerned an impact through a soft case could be enough to release the hammer.
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Re: Valuable lesson on condition 3.

Post by Brian D. »

I like a little risk in my daily routine Klingon00. :lol: Yeah it's about not storing a cocked/locked loaded handgun in a soft case. I want the gun kept safe yet ready to go. I won't lower the hammer to achieve condition 2 unless there's something else in the cargo area that would safely stop a bullet.

As stated it's something I don't bother with much any more, normally now any gun back there is unloaded but with a full magazine stored with it.
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Re: Valuable lesson on condition 3.

Post by Metal1 »

Always Condition 1 for me. Never saw a need for 2 or 3.
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Re: Valuable lesson on condition 3.

Post by MyWifeSaidYes »

I remember thinking I would have time to chamber a round should I need it...
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Re: Valuable lesson on condition 3.

Post by pirateguy191 »

MyWifeSaidYes wrote:
I remember thinking I would have time to chamber a round should I need it...
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Re: Valuable lesson on condition 3.

Post by WestonDon »

TV cops carry in condition 2 all the time. Point their gun at the armed BG then cock it to show 'em they mean business. Drives me nuts.
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Re: Valuable lesson on condition 3.

Post by MyWifeSaidYes »

WestonDon wrote:TV cops carry in condition 2 all the time. Point their gun at the armed BG then cock it to show 'em they mean business. Drives me nuts.
How about when they use the sound of a hammer being cocked when they show a Glock on screen?
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Re: Valuable lesson on condition 3.

Post by 3FULLMAGS+1 »

.......OR (assuming there's no holster), stick their gun in the small of their back and chase after the bad guy......shows how unrealistic movies really are! :lol:
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Re: Valuable lesson on condition 3.

Post by Brian D. »

WestonDon wrote:TV cops carry in condition 2 all the time. Point their gun at the armed BG then cock it to show 'em they mean business. Drives me nuts.
I've even seen shows where the gun gets cocked two or more times like that in the same scene. And yes, in one case it was a Glock.

Another is charging the chamber right before heading into the bad guy's lair, after apparently chasing him there with the gun in condition 3, maybe at some point having the gun in hand during the pursuit.
Quit worrying, hide your gun well, shut up, and CARRY that handgun!

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