Lights Out? A Tactical Question

[ApexShootingTactics]

If I am going into a potential meth lab I want to see what I am stepping on and possibly kicking.

I am assuming you haven't made too many entries into a structure based meth lab, huh? Great way to blow yourself up, and is an absolute necessity for scene safety to NOT be flipping lights on due to the booby traps that are probably present.

Yet another scenario that calls for a good flashlight. Sorry for the off topic...

Meth Labs are part of the job. I was in one at the beginning of the month during a SWAT raid. We wear respirators, we also have two guys in full SCBA gear and head to toe protective gear. They measure air quality during the raid and specifically look for meth related dangers. Once we control the structure everyone who is not in full SCBA and protective clothing gets out and the guys in full kit process the scene. Our agency did another lab this month that did not involve the SWAT team, just patrol officers and Drug Task Force Agents because the threat level was low.

There was a time we were doing an average of 2-3 a month for a few years. Some were high threat some not. It sucks but it has to be done. Booby traps are extremely rare and we train for them but we also have a lot of information prior to going in to allow us that important information. The most elaborate sets ups usually involve security cameras and guns.

[ApexShootingTactics]

The flip side is my house. I know it better than most in the light or dark so I will keep it dark until I feel like I no longer have the advantage. An advantage I have is I can control the downstairs lights from upstairs and the upstairs from downstairs. This offers me a tactical advantage.

This bring up an interesting question: If you're upstairs with your entire family, and there's a disturbance downstairs, would you potentially secure your family, then turn on the downstairs lights to let the intruder(s) know that you're aware of them? In my house, there's no way an intruder could make it up the steps without me having a clear shot before I'm spotted. I would think most intruders would bug out at that point (lights on and knowing that the homeowner is aware of you), but of course not all.

Thoughts?

Jonas,
Agreed. As we secure the family and call 911 I am turning on the downstairs light and announcing. My hope is that they bug out because they are there for the TV, computer or what have you. If they have other plans we have bought some time and tactical advantage. My plan is also based on living with in a very short distance of a police department. We have other variations of the plan but for the most part it starts out with the lights on down stairs and announcing. Our house is over 100 years old. As soon as you start moving around upstairs everyone hears you downstairs so the thought is to not bother with stealth movement.

This brings to mind a question I've had as well. If you are forced to defend yourself by shooting at someone who gets away in the middle of the night and call 911, should you go and turn on all the lights so that the responding police can see better who's who and what's going on even if you don't know the whereabouts of the bad guy?

I mean it makes logical sense to me...

Makes logical sense to me. I'd rather come clear your house with the lights on, makes it easier for you to see me, me to see you and for both of us to ID any potential threats.

[bearkitty]

You all give the best advice! I never thought we'd be talking meth labs in this thread, but it does illustrate the point.

Train, train, train, and train some more. The more options at the ready, the better.

I do find it interesting that I trust my trigger finger more than I trust that light switch finger right now. It really was a random thought as I was watching a movie and screaming for the lady to hit the lights. Maybe she should have. Maybe not.

Thank you for the valuable commentary. I hope others read this and think "one level" deeper as I have.

If there are other comments, keep 'em coming!

[welshj]

This brings to mind a question I've had as well. If you are forced to defend yourself by shooting at someone who gets away in the middle of the night and call 911, should you go and turn on all the lights so that the responding police can see better who's who and what's going on even if you don't know the whereabouts of the bad guy?

I mean it makes logical sense to me...

I'm out in the country- ten to twenty minutes away from police arrival.

Having said that, I've set in my living room at 3am and watched as a car flew by my house- then minutes later several cars pulled up fast and stopped out front of my house.
Collecting my sidearm as I walked out the door to find out what's going on- I see that it's several police officers looking for a hit and run vehicle.

I have no street lights at night. I have my home porch lights and a single sodium light out back, so all I saw was a man shaped shadow approaching...
My assumption was that it was an officer- but I couldn't tell until he got closer. Sheriff walked through my yard- I informed him I was armed and carry licensed. He paused a second, then walked up to me to ask me if I had seen any cars or people on foot. Apparently they were (suspects) hiding in the fields in the area.

I have insomnia and don't sleep til late- over the years I've investigated several noises on my property, and or my house.
I clear rooms first, then yard.
Then, every light is turned on and I'll check again.

Then police get called if necessary.

I consider turning home lights on- similar to turning on my dome light in my car when stopped.
I have nothing to hide, and have no place for someone else to hide in my house when they're on.

Not really sure what my actions would be beyond or after shooting and stopping a threat in my home, but I can guess that every available light would be burning afterwards.?

[boyscout]

Many, many years ago when I was a recently returned Viet Nam vet and was living in Dayton, a neighbor called and said that he had seen two men enter my screened porch and unscrew the light bulb. I immediately shut off all the lights, figuring that I knew the terrain better than they did. I then grabbed my 12 gauge and waited to ambush them if they kicked in the door. Shutting off the lights apparently was enough to spook them, however, and they took off. I've since demilitarized my tactics.

[Thug Hunter]

If I am going into a potential meth lab I want to see what I am stepping on and possibly kicking.

I am assuming you haven't made too many entries into a structure based meth lab, huh? Great way to blow yourself up, and is an absolute necessity for scene safety to NOT be flipping lights on due to the booby traps that are probably present.

Yet another scenario that calls for a good flashlight. Sorry for the off topic...

Meth Labs are part of the job. I was in one at the beginning of the month during a SWAT raid. We wear respirators, we also have two guys in full SCBA gear and head to toe protective gear. They measure air quality during the raid and specifically look for meth related dangers. Once we control the structure everyone who is not in full SCBA and protective clothing gets out and the guys in full kit process the scene. Our agency did another lab this month that did not involve the SWAT team, just patrol officers and Drug Task Force Agents because the threat level was low.

There was a time we were doing an average of 2-3 a month for a few years. Some were high threat some not. It sucks but it has to be done. Booby traps are extremely rare and we train for them but we also have a lot of information prior to going in to allow us that important information. The most elaborate sets ups usually involve security cameras and guns.

I also do meth labs. While "they measure air quality..." is vague, when I'm in a meth lab, especially during the initial entry, my primary concern has to do with chemicals that may be between the upper and lower explosive limits. Oxygen level would be a concern if you have personnel wearing air purifying respirators.

I'm not flipping any switches. We borrow special lights from the fire department just in case there is an unexpected and rapid increase in any explosive gases, or in case it goes to a plug that powers something that could be a problem.

I respectfully suggest you review your procedures. What has always worked so far, may not always work.

[schmieg]

Not flipping any switches should include flashlights unless they are electrically sealed like those old pink ones we had in the Army. The green ones would be a no-go.

[Brian D.]

We have (supposedly) intrinsically safe flashlights for explosive environments in my fire/EMS gig. But none of us ever turn them on or off while in the "hot" zone. Learned that way back in fire school 33 years ago and have found no reason to question that level of caution.

[schmieg]

We have (supposedly) intrinsically safe flashlights for explosive environments in my fire/EMS gig. But none of us ever turn them on or off while in the "hot" zone. Learned that way back in fire school 33 years ago and have found no reason to question that level of caution.

You never know when those seals will dry and crack.

[Thug Hunter]

I was pressed for time when I addressed the meth lab issue, and didn't get to the original question. Some of it may be personal preference, but skill level, which comes from training and experience, plays a role.

I've noticed that more highly trained and experienced people are much more likely to leave the lights off, and use a hand- held or better, a weapon-mounted light. Based on experience I've gained from being both good and bad guy in military and LE force-on-force training scenarios, I am convinced that I will almost always have the advantage using a weapon light against the typical untrained criminal or terrorist/insurgent. Real world experience has reinforced that.

Turning on the lights in a building drops me from a position of advantage to neutral at best. I don't mean to hurt any feelings, but I can't recall being trained to do it in any of the military units in which I've served, and it has only been mentioned in LE training, with the emphasis on using hand held or weapon lights. The cops I've seen do it in training and once or twice in real life tend to be complacent, lazy, and less competent.

Get high quality low-light training, practice with a weapon light in your own home, and you will have a huge advantage.

I've used a variety of lights. The best for a pistol seems to be a Surfire X300U with DG switch.

[ApexShootingTactics]

We are starting to stray off topic...

Concerning the Meth issue and use of lights... Thug Hunter, I understand what you are saying but the mission dictates the gear and tactics. Considering we are talking about a search warrant, in our jurisdiction we have a lot of information prior to entering the target location. The light switch issue is something people get wrapped around the axle about and it gets lumped in with "Always and Never" arguments. We base tactics and procedures off of current trends/practices and most importantly off of our recon and known intel. With Meth labs a huge concern can be lithium batteries and any exposed lithium strips. If a bunch of cops are tromping through a house with wet/snow covered boots and that moisture gets on the lithium strip we have a fire concern. Using as much light as possible to id those threats are just as important.

Lets be realistic. Road Cops and even SWAT Cops are not as proficient as they should be with handheld or weapon mounted lights. The time for training is just not there to be that proficent to negotiate most situations just using hand held and weapon mounted lights. If a structure has lighting available, use it. If the intel suggests you would be better off not using it, then don't.

What this all boils down to is knowing limitations, whether they are individual, team, safety, mission, legal. Adjust accordingly otherwise you make mistakes. Those limitations drive TTPs. I can tell you from experience as well after completing USMC CQB school and the school of thought was never to use light switches... Then we do actual Maritime Operations on ships we are not familiar with. Turning on lights is a good thing when you have Unknowns and Bad Guys hiding in nooks and crannies.

[Werz]

We base tactics and procedures off of current trends/practices and most importantly off of our recon and known intel. With Meth labs a huge concern can be lithium batteries and any exposed lithium strips. If a bunch of cops are tromping through a house with wet/snow covered boots and that moisture gets on the lithium strip we have a fire concern. Using as much light as possible to id those threats are just as important.

For the most part, the most flammable liquid will be Coleman fuel, which is pretty stable when it's just sitting there in a liquid state, and it's not very sensitive to sparks from light switches. If there's substantial vaporization from an over-pressure bottle popping, the water-lithium mix will ignite it before the electric spark does.

[Thug Hunter]

Apex,

I'm reading between the lines here, but are the following statements correct?

1. You are a member of a tactical team, and have done entries into meth labs, but have no actual clandestine laboratory certification. (Typically a 40 hour clandestine laboratory course)

2. All the meth labs you have done were of the "one-pot" variety.

3. You had good, credible intel on every lab before you made entry.

I'm not trying to sharp shoot you. I've seen some of your videos, and thought they were good. A couple of the things you said earlier in this thread did not make sense when I first read them, but do within certain parameters.

[Werz]

2. All the meth labs you have done were of the "one-pot" variety.

3. You had good, credible intel on every lab before you made entry.

In all fairness:

• How many Nazi or Red P labs have you seen in the last year? In the last two years?
• If you don't have good, credible intel, how do you have probable cause to make entry?

[Thug Hunter]

2. All the meth labs you have done were of the "one-pot" variety.

3. You had good, credible intel on every lab before you made entry.

In all fairness:

• How many Nazi or Red P labs have you seen in the last year? In the last two years?
• If you don't have good, credible intel, how do you have probable cause to make entry?

I've done Nazi, red P, and one pots. In the last year, just one pots. In the last two or so, at least one red P. Overall, our labs are down in the last year, but seizures of high quality meth in bulk amounts are up. Hopefully, labs will continue to decline. I don't know what state or nationwide numbers are.

Specifically to neutralize clandestine laboratories, we have made entry numerous times into vehicles and buildings without warrants. Some examples are traffic stops in which officers see signs of labs and stop searching at that point, and supposedly empty buildings in which the landlord finds a lab and gives us permission to enter.