Lights Out? A Tactical Question

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Werz
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Re: Lights Out? A Tactical Question

Post by Werz »

Thug Hunter wrote:
Werz wrote:
Thug Hunter wrote:2. All the meth labs you have done were of the "one-pot" variety.

3. You had good, credible intel on every lab before you made entry.
In all fairness:
  • How many Nazi or Red P labs have you seen in the last year? In the last two years?
  • If you don't have good, credible intel, how do you have probable cause to make entry?
I've done Nazi, red P, and one pots. In the last year, just one pots. In the last two or so, at least one red P. Overall, our labs are down in the last year, but seizures of high quality meth in bulk amounts are up. Hopefully, labs will continue to decline. I don't know what state or nationwide numbers are.
My point is that shake-and-bake is too quick and too easy to consider doing it any other way, and the risks posed by that method are fairly well known. If they want to produce more quantity, they get more two-liter bottles. Any moron with a few smurfs can cook. Even the old-school cooks have gone to one-pot method.

Just sayin' ...
Thug Hunter wrote:Specifically to neutralize clandestine laboratories, we have made entry numerous times into vehicles and buildings without warrants. Some examples are traffic stops in which officers see signs of labs and stop searching at that point, and supposedly empty buildings in which the landlord finds a lab and gives us permission to enter.
The issue is credible intelligence and how that will effect a light source. For a traffic stop, it will almost certainly be either [1] pre-cook assembly, [2] meth trash, or occasionally, [3] a cooking one-pot in a bag or backpack. In any event, those risks are fairly well defined. If someone finds production materials, you get the important information from the person who saw it before you make entry by consent. If you make a non-consensual, warrantless entry under exigent circumstances, you need probable cause of an active cook, i.e., the same degree of proof you would need for a search warrant, plus an immediate danger. R.C. 2933.33. Given those circumstances, you should still have pretty good information as to what you're facing.

The ultimate point is that it's better to be able to see where things are, and who else may be present, than to split hairs about the possibility of ignition from a light source.
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ApexShootingTactics
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Re: Lights Out? A Tactical Question

Post by ApexShootingTactics »

Thug Hunter wrote:Apex,

I'm reading between the lines here, but are the following statements correct?

1. You are a member of a tactical team, and have done entries into meth labs, but have no actual clandestine laboratory certification. (Typically a 40 hour clandestine laboratory course)

2. All the meth labs you have done were of the "one-pot" variety.

3. You had good, credible intel on every lab before you made entry.

I'm not trying to sharp shoot you. I've seen some of your videos, and thought they were good. A couple of the things you said earlier in this thread did not make sense when I first read them, but do within certain parameters.
TH,
You are not reading between the lines, you are assuming a lot and this thread is starting to look like a {inappropriate language} match. I've been doing this since 2003, consider the trends of meth labs over the past decade. I just saw my first one pot 2 years ago and that was a trash pile at the side of the road. Prior to that a handful of Nazi early on but then everyone was doing Red-p for several years. Looking at my training folder, I have a total of 88 hours of lab training and No, I don't have the OPOTA Lab Cert. I am pretty transparent, I post a large majority of my certs on my LinkIn profile. I did a google search for "Thug Hunter", I did not click on the links but they are not what I expected from you. Ok, that is a bit of sarcasm but google it and you will understand the sarcasm.

Your last question sounds like you just want to debate everything and maybe you are taking this too personal. There are no absolutes, intel is only the process of gathering information and analyzing it. Though you have to go with what you know and what the trends are. Though if you are making a tactical entry on a lab it has to be for a reason. No one should be using a Tactical Team just because they can, the threat has to be there. In many cases if the lab is thought to be extensive and the danger level is through the roof you don't make entry, you find other means of controlling the individuals and then send your guys who have the full protection in. Lastly, you are making entry because you have a search warrant. I have written my share of search warrants in Medina and Summit County for a variety of cases. Maybe it is different where you are but in Medina and Summit you don't get that warrant on a few tiny shreds of intel. You have a pile of facts to take to the judge.

I get the impression you are basing all your tactics on the worst case scenario. We can't apply the worst case scenario tactics to every situation and that is my over all point about the light issue. There is a time and place for everything.
-Andrew

http://apexshooting.com

https://www.facebook.com/ApexShootingTactics

By failing to prepare, you are preparing to fail. -Benjamin Franklin
Thug Hunter
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Re: Lights Out? A Tactical Question

Post by Thug Hunter »

No, I'm not trying to debate or argue every little point. I was surprised that you said you turn on the lights when you do meth labs, without qualifying that was for only (I believe--apologies if wrong) one pots.

These are serious questions; do you try to turn on interior lights on burglary runs?

How about during dynamic entries? During slow searches, like for a barricaded suspect?

I prefer a weapon mounted light, and failing that, a hand held.

I've talked to a few co-workers, and the prevailing thought is that it's better to get through the house quickly and secure it and the people in it, rather than stopping to flip switches. I might get lucky and find the right switch the first time, but probably not.

If I see something you are doing better than I am in a given situation, I will definitely start doing it your way.

I'm not taking anything personally. I hope you're not, either. If we ever meet, first drink is on me.
"Luckily, I keep my feathers numbered, for just such an emergency."- Foghorn Leghorn

"You can't arrest somebody for that. The most you can do is mace him and let him get away."- Thug Hunter
ApexShootingTactics
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Re: Lights Out? A Tactical Question

Post by ApexShootingTactics »

Like I have been saying, the situation dictates. The last lab we were on I don't think anyone touched a switch because the raid occurred late morning. There was plenty of sunlight coming through the windows and the suspect was home with many interior lights already on. Several years ago we did another at zero dark thirty and the house was a cluttered mess. There was an infant in the home and we flipped switches in the home to find the infant. Another instance was in a hotel where we didn't even enter, we open the door and ordered out the suspects.

I am not going to get into details about our agency tactics concerning all the other incidents you brought up. I can tell you that the situation will dictate. I have cleared buildings with NODs, handheld and weapon mounted white light and by use of the structures lighting in each of those instances the mission and environment will dictate a direction for your TTPs.

TH, you going to the OTOA conference? Shoot me a pm if you are and lets continue the discussion over a beer or two.
-Andrew

http://apexshooting.com

https://www.facebook.com/ApexShootingTactics

By failing to prepare, you are preparing to fail. -Benjamin Franklin
GroundChuk
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Re: Lights Out? A Tactical Question

Post by GroundChuk »

As far as the light deal, I have a two story house, with unfinished basement. I leave a light on 24/7 in the basement, living room, kitchen and bathroom on the first floor. And have a dusk-to-dawn light on my front porch.

House always lit up at night I think would keep most away.
Metal1
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Re: Lights Out? A Tactical Question

Post by Metal1 »

I put on my Tactical Night Vision Goggles. Flipping on the light switch would essentially blind me, thereby making them useless and giving my foe the upper hand. I have them on the nightstand next to my Glock 18 and my CCW Badge in case the cops come afterwards.
A few years ago I heard some strange noises on the first floor of my house. I jumped up like a jack rabbit, grabbed my Glock, NVG's and my badge. Threw on my favorite pair of Batman underoos and hit the hallway stairs "slicing the pie" mind you. Cleared the stairs and started down them, skipping one stair with each step as I went down them. (Years ago I set them up to squeak every other one so I could be alerted to anyone coming up them) Once on the first floor, I again "sliced the pie" into the living room where I initially heard the noise that startled me out of my deep sleep and dream of riding shotgun with Wyatt Earp (another Story)
Anyway...... I get into the living room and clear it too. I search the rest of the house and my neighbor Bernadette is standing there naked holding a package of Skittles.
Strange.
GatorNavy
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Re: Lights Out? A Tactical Question

Post by GatorNavy »

Metal1 wrote:I put on my Tactical Night Vision Goggles. Flipping on the light switch would essentially blind me, thereby making them useless and giving my foe the upper hand. I have them on the nightstand next to my Glock 18 and my CCW Badge in case the cops come afterwards.
A few years ago I heard some strange noises on the first floor of my house. I jumped up like a jack rabbit, grabbed my Glock, NVG's and my badge. Threw on my favorite pair of Batman underoos and hit the hallway stairs "slicing the pie" mind you. Cleared the stairs and started down them, skipping one stair with each step as I went down them. (Years ago I set them up to squeak every other one so I could be alerted to anyone coming up them) Once on the first floor, I again "sliced the pie" into the living room where I initially heard the noise that startled me out of my deep sleep and dream of riding shotgun with Wyatt Earp (another Story)
Anyway...... I get into the living room and clear it too. I search the rest of the house and my neighbor Bernadette is standing there naked holding a package of Skittles.
Strange.
Did Bernadette think you were Marshawn Lynch? :)
Come and get'em
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