When a LEO tries to stop you and good case law citation

Use this forum to post your experience with encounters with law enforcement, criminals, or other encounters as a result of your firearm or potential to be carrying one.

Moderators: Chuck, Mustang380gal, Coordinators, Moderators

letterofthelaw
Posts: 181
Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2008 8:19 am
Location: Hamilton County

When a LEO tries to stop you and good case law citation

Post by letterofthelaw »

.
Last edited by letterofthelaw on Thu Feb 12, 2015 7:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Bama.45
Posts: 3025
Joined: Wed May 21, 2014 4:32 pm
Location: Warren county

Re: When a LEO tries to stop you and good case law citation

Post by Bama.45 »

Well..To me personally..It isn't one of those things I'd like to hash out on the side of the road...Things like this can and have gone bad in the past..I would relinquish it..Then proceed to take it up the chain of command to the Ohio AG's office if I had to..Then possibly see what kind of lawsuit could be filed against the agency that employs that particular officer...That being said..Trying to come inside my house and confiscate my guns, would definitely get a different response.
Last edited by Bama.45 on Thu Feb 12, 2015 7:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Lord, make my hand fast and accurate.
Let my aim be true and my hand faster
than those who would seek to destroy me.
Grant me victory over my foes and those who wish to do harm to me and mine.
Let not my last thought be 'If I only had my gun."
And Lord, if today is truly the day you call me home
Let me die in a pile of empty brass."
Amen




U.S. Marines 01-07



~The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.~ Thomas Jefferson
User avatar
JediSkipdogg
Posts: 10257
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2008 3:03 pm
Location: Batavia
Contact:

Re: When a LEO tries to stop you and good case law citation

Post by JediSkipdogg »

Case law is for the courtroom not the side of the road. About all you should do on the side of the road (or sidewalk or store) is say you do not consent and you want to know what their reason for what they are doing is. If you start citing case law the officer isn't really going to care and is going to say current law allows them to do whatever they are doing. You pretty much only work at {inappropriate language} the officer off and accomplishing nothing else.
Carrying Concealed Handguns - Signage Answers

Ohio Concealed Carry Classes in S/W Ohio
http://www.ProShootersTraining.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I am not a lawyer. My answers are based on research, knowledge, and are generally backed up with facts, the Ohio Revised Code, or the United States Code.
Tweed Ring
Posts: 17812
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2007 9:15 am

Re: When a LEO tries to stop you and good case law citation

Post by Tweed Ring »

I am polite, and also pleasant, on those rare occasions when stopped by the paddy rollers. I don't want to hold court on the street, nor do I want the officer to so act. My demeanor tells the officer I am a good person, and there are criminals out there who need his immediate attention.
User avatar
djthomas
Posts: 5961
Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2006 11:09 am

Re: When a LEO tries to stop you and good case law citation

Post by djthomas »

Drats. Looks like I got in late and missed a good story.
User avatar
pirateguy191
Posts: 11009
Joined: Sat Feb 14, 2009 12:06 pm
Location: 44146

Re: When a LEO tries to stop you and good case law citation

Post by pirateguy191 »

. .
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem." - Ronald Reagan

"When democracy turns to tyranny, the armed citizen still gets to vote." ~ Mike Vanderboegh

NRA member, NRA basic pistol instructor, DBACB
User avatar
djthomas
Posts: 5961
Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2006 11:09 am

Re: When a LEO tries to stop you and good case law citation

Post by djthomas »

^-- Yeah. What he said. I think this one's quickly spiraling towards the end...
Brian D.
Posts: 16229
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 8:42 pm
Location: SW Ohio

Re: When a LEO tries to stop you and good case law citation

Post by Brian D. »

I keep the Attorney General's CHL handbook above my driver's side visor. Also a couple of printouts of Ohio Revised Code sections dealing with 'inducing panic' and the like. You know, the kind of catchall charges a badge-heavy or supposedly poorly informed cop (yes they are rare but out there but thankfully rare) could try to threaten me with if/when I choose to open carry when out and about. That's about all I have room for in that space, I don't want the visor to flop down and bean me with 20 pounds of documents!

I've had a very few occasions to offer to show these things to LEO's in the last ten years. At that point they always seem to adapt a more cordial demeanor, decline to look at the information, and stop trying to tell me I''m doing something illegal. Haven't had one of these encounters in the last three or fours though, thankfully.
Quit worrying, hide your gun well, shut up, and CARRY that handgun!

********************************************************************************
1911 and Browning Hi Power Enthusianado.
User avatar
SeanC
OFCC Coordinator
OFCC Coordinator
Posts: 2519
Joined: Fri Oct 13, 2006 1:35 pm
Location: Springboro, Ohio

Re: When a LEO tries to stop you and good case law citation

Post by SeanC »

I occasionally had the privilege to instruct at OPOTA when I worked at the AG's office, and I can tell you that cops aren't generally concerned with case law citations. They prefer rules over cases: "if you arrest Tom, you can search Tom," not "in U.S. v. Robinson...." I'm very sympathetic to that mentality, as I never learned many of the case names in law school, but I memorized the facts, the rules of law, and the analysis. Most cops probably think someone who starts spouting off case law is a blow-hard, and I tend to agree.

If the cop thinks he has a basis to search you, he's going to search you no matter how many cases you rattle off. The better approach is just to make it very clear that you do not consent to the search, and the address the matter later in court.
I am a lawyer; I am not your lawyer.
User avatar
Werz
OFCC Patron Member
OFCC Patron Member
Posts: 5506
Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 2:37 am

Re: When a LEO tries to stop you and good case law citation

Post by Werz »

SeanC wrote:I occasionally had the privilege to instruct at OPOTA when I worked at the AG's office, and I can tell you that cops aren't generally concerned with case law citations. They prefer rules over cases: "if you arrest Tom, you can search Tom," not "in U.S. v. Robinson...." I'm very sympathetic to that mentality, as I never learned many of the case names in law school, but I memorized the facts, the rules of law, and the analysis. Most cops probably think someone who starts spouting off case law is a blow-hard, and I tend to agree.

If the cop thinks he has a basis to search you, he's going to search you no matter how many cases you rattle off. The better approach is just to make it very clear that you do not consent to the search, and the address the matter later in court.
Having recently watched several AXON audio/video recordings of arrests, I have found the novel legal opinions of some "street lawyers" to be rather amusing, although not all of those were handled very deftly by the arresting officers.

That is something which folks should consider. In the past, YouTube videos of arrests were largely limited to the staged "guerilla theatre" of folks like the CopBlock weenies. Now, with the fast-growing prevalence of body-cams, as soon as a criminal case is disposed of, or as soon as a decision is made not to file charges, those videos will become public record, at least in Ohio. No right to privacy. No protection from embarrassment. No control over what content is posted on YouTube. That should be a sobering thought for some "street lawyers."
"An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life."
-- Robert A. Heinlein, Beyond This Horizon
"Remember that protecting our gun rights still boils down to keeping a majority in the electorate, and that our daily activities can have the impact of being ambassadors for the gun culture ..."
-- BobK
Open carry is a First Amendment exercise.
glocksmith
Posts: 3918
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2011 10:04 am
Location: Cincinnati/SW Ohio

Re: When a LEO tries to stop you and good case law citation

Post by glocksmith »

Werz wrote:Having recently watched several AXON audio/video recordings of arrests, I have found the novel legal opinions of some "street lawyers" to be rather amusing, although not all of those were handled very deftly by the arresting officers.
On a related note. LEO's can be "rather amusing" too - especially when they play drug counselor, psychologist, teacher etc. and lecture a suspect they've arrested. Pointing out the error of their ways, and explaining to them the consequences of their bad choices. WTH in an LEO's job description does it say they need to (or even can) do this? They're AFAIK limited to asking questions to determine if a crime has been committed, then making an arrest, or not. That's it. BUT watch any episode of COPS on TV and you'll see them playing curbside social worker.
Give em' Hell Pike!!!
User avatar
djthomas
Posts: 5961
Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2006 11:09 am

Re: When a LEO tries to stop you and good case law citation

Post by djthomas »

The first amendment gives LEOs the right to ask any questions or make any comments they want. The first and fifth amendments give the other party the right to refuse to participate in the discussion.

Like it or not LEOs are called upon to be social workers and everything else. At least once a week we get calls about some kid, under the age of 12 that is "so out of control" that the calling parent can't control them. Do you think the parent calls 911 so the police will show up and manhandle their kid and haul them off to jail? Of course not.

The recent tragedy in Cleveland where the woman who was off her meds died in police custody ... the family called the cops twice that day when they couldn't control her. She started getting out of control and eventually forced the officers' hands and they took her into custody to take her to the hospital. During that process she fought like a fiend and died, possibly from cardiac arrest. The family, of course, was outraged, but they clearly expected police to do more than the usual police work (show up, arrest the person causing a disturbance and take them away). In fact their subsequent lawsuit even accused the department of not providing enough training on dealing with mental issues other than using force.

The long and short of it is the public has come to expect law enforcement officers to be lawyers, mediators, adjudicators, social workers, counselors, medical practitioners, locksmiths, animal welfare advocates, and everything else. And do it perfectly. Every time.
User avatar
Werz
OFCC Patron Member
OFCC Patron Member
Posts: 5506
Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 2:37 am

Re: When a LEO tries to stop you and good case law citation

Post by Werz »

djthomas wrote:The long and short of it is the public has come to expect law enforcement officers to be lawyers, mediators, adjudicators, social workers, counselors, medical practitioners, locksmiths, animal welfare advocates, and everything else. And do it perfectly. Every time.
This.
"An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life."
-- Robert A. Heinlein, Beyond This Horizon
"Remember that protecting our gun rights still boils down to keeping a majority in the electorate, and that our daily activities can have the impact of being ambassadors for the gun culture ..."
-- BobK
Open carry is a First Amendment exercise.
User avatar
Werz
OFCC Patron Member
OFCC Patron Member
Posts: 5506
Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 2:37 am

Re: When a LEO tries to stop you and good case law citation

Post by Werz »

glocksmith wrote:
Werz wrote:Having recently watched several AXON audio/video recordings of arrests, I have found the novel legal opinions of some "street lawyers" to be rather amusing, although not all of those were handled very deftly by the arresting officers.
They're AFAIK limited to asking questions to determine if a crime has been committed, then making an arrest, or not. That's it.
That's the kind of novel legal opinion that I find amusing on those videos. :mrgreen:
"An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life."
-- Robert A. Heinlein, Beyond This Horizon
"Remember that protecting our gun rights still boils down to keeping a majority in the electorate, and that our daily activities can have the impact of being ambassadors for the gun culture ..."
-- BobK
Open carry is a First Amendment exercise.
Bama.45
Posts: 3025
Joined: Wed May 21, 2014 4:32 pm
Location: Warren county

Re: When a LEO tries to stop you and good case law citation

Post by Bama.45 »

Yeah... I have to say cops are expected to wear many different hats... I respect them for doing a job that is for the most part thankless... I will say though when I have a good encounter with a cop... I do call and speak to the chief or their field supervisor and tell them that the said officer did a fantastic and professional job.
"Lord, make my hand fast and accurate.
Let my aim be true and my hand faster
than those who would seek to destroy me.
Grant me victory over my foes and those who wish to do harm to me and mine.
Let not my last thought be 'If I only had my gun."
And Lord, if today is truly the day you call me home
Let me die in a pile of empty brass."
Amen




U.S. Marines 01-07



~The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.~ Thomas Jefferson
Post Reply