Shooting when someone is fleeing

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Tweed Ring
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Re: Shooting when someone is fleeing

Post by Tweed Ring »

The components of Jeopardy are: Opportunity, Means and Intent. All must be present for Jeopardy to attach.
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SeanC
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Re: Shooting when someone is fleeing

Post by SeanC »

OhioPaints wrote:
MrDanner wrote:This is fascinating to read. I'm amazed at how the same situation can be interpreted in different ways.

It seems that self-defense is so full of variables and technicalities. Do you think it makes a difference if say after the fact, an investigation finds that you were *not* in danger of death or serious bodily injury, but at the time (because of fear and/or adrenaline and/or even inexperience) you truly honestly *believed* you were? I would imagine there's some discretion in whether or not you are charged with a crime and the police/prosecutor/jury could still be convinced that you truly believed you were in mortal danger even though the after-the-fact evidence shows that you technically were not.

Either way, I'd rather not find out and hope I never have to.
There is no clear, across the board answer. In reality, your legal exposure depends very much on the cops, prosecutor, judge and jury. What gets you sent to prison in one case in one county in Ohio might get you a pat on the back in another county. Your first "judge and jury" is the investigating cop. The second one is the local prosecutor. After that it's a dice roll how a jury will go. I was on a murder trial many years ago. The first comment I heard as we went into the deliberation room was "let's get this done, I want to watch the ball game this afternoon." The second comment was "if we are considering the death penalty, then I'm voting 'not guilty'".
That's my philosophy, too. There are no hard and fast rules when it comes to self-defense. It's like that to protect a legitimate self-defense user even in a very abnormal fact pattern, and also to withdraw protection from someone who truly had other options besides the use of deadly force. The most basic principle of self-defense is this: if your life is in danger and you have no other option, shoot. The law will usually protect you. If it doesn't, you would be dead anyway if you didn't shoot, so enjoy the fact that you're still alive, even if you're alive with legal problems.
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Bama.45
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Re: Shooting when someone is fleeing

Post by Bama.45 »

SeanC wrote:
OhioPaints wrote:
MrDanner wrote:This is fascinating to read. I'm amazed at how the same situation can be interpreted in different ways.

It seems that self-defense is so full of variables and technicalities. Do you think it makes a difference if say after the fact, an investigation finds that you were *not* in danger of death or serious bodily injury, but at the time (because of fear and/or adrenaline and/or even inexperience) you truly honestly *believed* you were? I would imagine there's some discretion in whether or not you are charged with a crime and the police/prosecutor/jury could still be convinced that you truly believed you were in mortal danger even though the after-the-fact evidence shows that you technically were not.

Either way, I'd rather not find out and hope I never have to.
There is no clear, across the board answer. In reality, your legal exposure depends very much on the cops, prosecutor, judge and jury. What gets you sent to prison in one case in one county in Ohio might get you a pat on the back in another county. Your first "judge and jury" is the investigating cop. The second one is the local prosecutor. After that it's a dice roll how a jury will go. I was on a murder trial many years ago. The first comment I heard as we went into the deliberation room was "let's get this done, I want to watch the ball game this afternoon." The second comment was "if we are considering the death penalty, then I'm voting 'not guilty'".
That's my philosophy, too. There are no hard and fast rules when it comes to self-defense. It's like that to protect a legitimate self-defense user even in a very abnormal fact pattern, and also to withdraw protection from someone who truly had other options besides the use of deadly force. The most basic principle of self-defense is this: if your life is in danger and you have no other option, shoot. The law will usually protect you. If it doesn't, you would be dead anyway if you didn't shoot, so enjoy the fact that you're still alive, even if you're alive with legal problems.


Goes back to the saying "I'd rather be judged by twelve, than carried by six."
"Lord, make my hand fast and accurate.
Let my aim be true and my hand faster
than those who would seek to destroy me.
Grant me victory over my foes and those who wish to do harm to me and mine.
Let not my last thought be 'If I only had my gun."
And Lord, if today is truly the day you call me home
Let me die in a pile of empty brass."
Amen




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OhioPaints
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Re: Shooting when someone is fleeing

Post by OhioPaints »

Bama.45 wrote:Goes back to the saying "I'd rather be judged by twelve, than carried by six."
But the real win-win is to be neither judged nor carried, hence we have our many discussions here as to how best avoid both, not just one or the other.

Ken
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Re: Shooting when someone is fleeing

Post by Bama.45 »

OhioPaints wrote:
Bama.45 wrote:Goes back to the saying "I'd rather be judged by twelve, than carried by six."
But the real win-win is to be neither judged nor carried, hence we have our many discussions here as to how best avoid both, not just one or the other.

Ken

Oh, I completely agree..If I can avoid it I will..But if given no choice, I won't hesitate.
"Lord, make my hand fast and accurate.
Let my aim be true and my hand faster
than those who would seek to destroy me.
Grant me victory over my foes and those who wish to do harm to me and mine.
Let not my last thought be 'If I only had my gun."
And Lord, if today is truly the day you call me home
Let me die in a pile of empty brass."
Amen




U.S. Marines 01-07



~The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.~ Thomas Jefferson
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Re: Shooting when someone is fleeing

Post by tbrew85 »

http://news.yahoo.com/oklahoma-police-r ... 50903.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Fleeing suspect. Completely justified IMHO.
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Re: Shooting when someone is fleeing

Post by CroManGun »

tbrew85 wrote:http://news.yahoo.com/oklahoma-police-r ... 50903.html

Fleeing suspect. Completely justified IMHO.
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Re: Shooting when someone is fleeing

Post by TSiWRX »

tbrew85 wrote:http://news.yahoo.com/oklahoma-police-r ... 50903.html

Fleeing suspect. Completely justified IMHO.
I think this points out well that a body-camera is not going to solve all issues.

http://www.forcescience.org/bodycams.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

^ I think the public at-large really needs to read this and understand this, before everyone starts latching on to body-cams as the solution to all problems.
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Re: Shooting when someone is fleeing

Post by dangerranger6100 »

TSiWRX wrote:
tbrew85 wrote:http://news.yahoo.com/oklahoma-police-r ... 50903.html

Fleeing suspect. Completely justified IMHO.
I think this points out well that a body-camera is not going to solve all issues.

http://www.forcescience.org/bodycams.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

^ I think the public at-large really needs to read this and understand this, before everyone starts latching on to body-cams as the solution to all problems.
The cameras definitely have their shortcomings, but it's probably a very good thing that this officer had one. If tthere was no video of the guy dropping a gun, then stopping to pick it up, this may have been another "unarmed" man shot I'm the back while running away.

I would also agree that someone armed with a firearm and shoots at or threatens to shoot generally continues to be a threat even if they are running away. If said person valued his life and really wanted to cease being a threat, he would drop the gun as he turned to run.
jordysoso
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Re: Shooting when someone is fleeing

Post by jordysoso »

The issue of firing at someone running away is a grey area. Look at it like this... Armed criminal is running out the front of a store after you are firing at him, you stop because he's running away. All of a sudden bullets are flying at you because all he did was run outside and take cover behind a parked car to return fire at you. The old mantra, "its better to be judged by twelve than carried by six" can apply here. Personally, if I was in a situation where I'm in the store while an armed robbery is going on and I fire at the bad guy, if he's running away with gun in hand, I'm going to put him down because he still has control of his weapon and may be moving to cover. I'd rather deal with a jury of my peers than to worry about rounds coming back at me from outside the store. A threat is still a threat until it either doesn't have a firearm, or is laying on the ground. Granted there is no way I'm going to chase the guy down the street because then it can be argued that I am now the aggressor because he tried to flee the situation.
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Re: Shooting when someone is fleeing

Post by MacDonald »

Yeah, if he points his gun at me as he is running away he is a problem.
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Re: Shooting when someone is fleeing

Post by Liberty Sanders »

Yes, you can shoot a fleeing felon, BUT it is an act that is fraught with peril.

The gory details can be found in the SCOTUS case of Garner v. Tennessee.
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Re: Shooting when someone is fleeing

Post by Werz »

Liberty Sanders wrote:Yes, you can shoot a fleeing felon, BUT it is an act that is fraught with peril.

The gory details can be found in the SCOTUS case of Garner v. Tennessee.
More importantly, the standard set forth in Tennessee v. Garner, 471 U.S. 1 (1985), applies only to peace officers. I discussed that here.
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Re: Shooting when someone is fleeing

Post by M-Quigley »

DontTreadOnMe wrote:
MrDanner wrote:Do you think it makes a difference if say after the fact, an investigation finds that you were *not* in danger of death or serious bodily injury, but at the time (because of fear and/or adrenaline and/or even inexperience) you truly honestly *believed* you were? I would imagine there's some discretion in whether or not you are charged with a crime and the police/prosecutor/jury could still be convinced that you truly believed you were in mortal danger even though the after-the-fact evidence shows that you technically were not.
Great question, and yes there is. It's called the "reasonable man" (or, "reasonable person") doctrine. After the fact the police, prosecutor, and maybe (but hopefully not) a jury will review your actions in light of what a reasonable person would have done, in the same situation and knowing what you knew.

Example: A person points a gun at you and says "gimmie your dough". He's not smiling, he seems to be serious. Instead of reaching for your wallet you draw your gun and shoot him. Afterwards, the police discover his gun wasn't loaded. Unless there's evidence you knew that, your use of deadly force will be judged reasonable since you couldn't have known the gun was unloaded. That's a really obvious example but of course there are many others that are less black & white.

There are a lot of resources you can review to better understand the legal elements of justifiable use of deadly force in self defense, but here's a pretty good article that has the benefit of being free: Ability + Opportunity + Intent

Tip: There are a lot of good articles at that site.
To add to what he said, it doesn't even have to be a real gun to be considered a threat. For example, someone robbing someone with a realistic looking fake gun. Also in one situation that happened back when I was a child, (before ccw permits in Ohio) a guy walked into a store, stuck his hand into his overcoat, raised his hand up like he was pointing a gun and demanded money. The store owner retrieved a gun under a counter when he went to the register, shot the robber, and it was considered justifiable at the time. It turned out that there was no gun but the store owner had no way of knowing that.
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Re: Shooting when someone is fleeing

Post by AlanM »

For a real world example of a robbery victim shooting a perp. who had an unloaded gun case in Ohio see this 18 page thread.
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Short version: robber had sawed off shotgun, got money, was stuffing money in shirt, pizza shop owner pulled his gun, shot robber, robber fell down, got up still holding shotgun, received several more rounds, died about a block away. Turned out the shotgun wasn't loaded. Pizza shop owner not charged.
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