A time and place for open carry

[MyWifeSaidYes]

Apex, if someone walked out of their house with an openly holstered sidearm, what then?

The biggest fail here is the unloaded gun.

[pirateguy191]

Apex, if someone walked out of their house with an openly holstered sidearm, what then?

The biggest fail here is the unloaded gun.

I tried that one but didn't get an answer.

[hank.forker]

So to boil it down, a man walked outside of his home with a firearm. Sounds like he had every right to do so.

[JustaShooter]

Apex, if someone walked out of their house with an openly holstered sidearm, what then?

The biggest fail here is the unloaded gun.

I tried that one but didn't get an answer.

I agree, but got taken to task over on BFA. Still don't see where he could be charged with the stuff they were talking about. As I said, epic fail but mostly because of the club... er, unloaded shotgun.

[JediSkipdogg]

Apex, if someone walked out of their house with an openly holstered sidearm, what then?

The biggest fail here is the unloaded gun.

And we are back to the debate over an holstered/slung firearm vs a carried/in the hands firearm. Is there a difference in threat level between the two? I say there is.

As for a violation, if they wanted to push it, I say...

2917.13 Misconduct at emergency.

(A) No person shall knowingly do any of the following:
(1) Hamper the lawful operations of any law enforcement officer, firefighter, rescuer, medical person, emergency medical services person, or other authorized person, engaged in the person's duties at the scene of a fire, accident, disaster, riot, or emergency of any kind;
(3) Fail to obey the lawful order of any law enforcement officer engaged in the law enforcement officer's duties at the scene of or in connection with a fire, accident, disaster, riot, or emergency of any kind.

#3 would only apply if they told the residents to stay inside. Is that a lawful order? That's up to debate. Can police tell you not to run into a burning building to save your dog? We are back to what is a lawful order which we have heavily debated on here in the past.

#1 I think would fit most appropriately as walking outside of a SWAT standoff with a shotgun when unrelated to the incident is hampering it as you are taking the direction away from their primary objective and putting the attention on themselves.

Unfortunately, there is very little case law with regards to 2917.13 so it's hard to really apply the section. Basically, it's not used that often.

[ApexShootingTactics]

I did up date the post. He was not charged and I gave further detail.

It seems that some of you want to debate the issue that any law abiding citizen can walk anywhere open carry to include an active an unfolding event like a barricaded subject. I explained why the subject was not charged in this case. It is my opinion that he would have been charged in this incident if he KNEW LE was on scene and he his purpose was to get involved.

It is my opinion that the incident was closer to fitting Disorderly Conduct. If reverse 911 was used or he ignored initial orders by officers on scene then I agree with JediSkipDog concerning Misconduct at Emergency.

[Werz]

Apex, if someone walked out of their house with an openly holstered sidearm, what then?

That was not the situation here. And regardless of what spurious arguments may be made as to all acts of open carry being the same, everything has context.

And regarding the observation of JediSkipdogg as to the dearth of case law, there is one keen observation from the Court of Appeals in the same jurisdiction:

"There are only a handful of decisions that have discussed this offense. The common thread they share is that the defendant acted-out in a way that interfered with an official's investigation of an accident or emergency." State v. Bryant, 2011-Ohio-4555, at ¶12 (9th Dist.).

For a person to appear with a shotgun at a barricade situation, without further explanation and without being a recognizable law enforcement officer, is clearly an act which would distract from the performance of emergency duties, regardless of whether or not the shotgun is loaded. To claim otherwise is grossly naïve or outright dishonest. Having a good story about his mistaken belief is probably the only thing that prevented this guy from being charged.

[CroManGun]

"As officers set up a perimeter, SWAT arrived and negotiations continued, there was an obvious police presence."


A follow up interview was done and the subject explained his actions. The subject reported not knowing about the incident taking place or that LE being on scene. The subject's girlfriend was about to leave work at a near by business and when she discovered what was happening she called the subject and was hysterical on the phone. The subject reported he only understood that she couldn't come home because there was a man with a gun. So he grabbed the shotgun and decided to go see what was happening with his girlfriend and he ends up walking out into the scene.

Looks like, in this case, ignorance WAS an excuse. Now the unloaded shotgun is starting to make sense. Hopefully, next time, he'll be content to stay inside and just lick the window.

[JediSkipdogg]

I'm still trying to figure out the hysterical girlfriend that didn't make sense. Maybe she's an MDAer that swatted her own boyfriend.

[glocksmith]

I'd like to know what laws are on the books regarding these situations. What authority do the police have to order people to "shelter in place"? If they have such authority...based on the law...how far out does that "perimeter" extend beyond the immediate area of the incident. AFAIK these are questions without answers...and for the most part citizens just cooperate with such orders without questioning them.

EDIT: Looks like Jedi asked the same above

[ApexShootingTactics]

A few of the laws that could apply to your question Glocksmith. Understand that every situation is different but the scenes that I have worked we have had people refuse to leave their home when they were in immediate danger of the suspect. No worries, we just warn them of the danger and tell them to let us know if they want to leave so those working the scene are not caught off guard. At most scenes we have people cause issues wanting to get close and video tape/ take photos. Nothing we can do other than keep them at the perimeter. I have also had people walk directly through a perimeter, some on purpose, some by accident. In 12 years I can't recall us charging anyone outside of the primary suspects, this last incident was the closest we came.

Obstructing Justice
Obstructing Official Business
Disorderly Conduct
Misconduct at an Emergency

[Werz]

A few of the laws that could apply to your question Glocksmith. Understand that every situation is different but the scenes that I have worked we have had people refuse to leave their home when they were in immediate danger of the suspect. No worries, we just warn them of the danger and tell them to let us know if they want to leave so those working the scene are not caught off guard. At most scenes we have people cause issues wanting to get close and video tape/ take photos. Nothing we can do other than keep them at the perimeter. I have also had people walk directly through a perimeter, some on purpose, some by accident. In 12 years I can't recall us charging anyone outside of the primary suspects, this last incident was the closest we came.

Obstructing Justice

Not likely. That requires evidence of purpose to "hinder the discovery, apprehension, prosecution, conviction, or punishment of another for crime or to assist another to benefit from the commission of a crime." Folks who are just being nosy or want to "protect themselves and their families" aren't going to fit into that category. There must be compelling evidence that the person is trying to help out the barricaded suspect.

[Tweed Ring]

The Iron Triangle of Trouble. Anticipate it. Avoid it.

[ApexShootingTactics]

Werz,
Like I said each situation is different. The examples I gave are just that, examples. Each one will fit a different set of circumstances. Obstructing is very common at least it is common around Medina County. And we are not charging people for being nosey, to get charged you need to go beyond that.

[Werz]

Werz,
Like I said each situation is different. The examples I gave are just that, examples. Each one will fit a different set of circumstances. Obstructing is very common at least it is common around Medina County. And we are not charging people for being nosey, to get charged you need to go beyond that.

Obstructing Official Business gets charged a lot, but not as often as officers want it to be; the case law is pretty clear that a person cannot be charged with that just because they refuse to tell the officer what he/she wants to know. Obstructing Justice comes into the booking desk a lot more often than it comes out of the grand jury room.

And some counties don't allow police officers to write complaints that cannot be written on a citation form.

Just sayin' ...