Chicken Little: Mall Cop

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Werz
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Re: Chicken Little: Mall Cop

Post by Werz »

JediSkipdogg wrote:Kenwood Towne Center is sort of posted. They are not posted on the doors but are posted in their code of conduct which can be found inside every entrance and also be found here. IMO....it's not an envelope to push that they are not posted as we would like or it could be pushed the wrong way.
Despite some of the questionable complaints I have read about postings which are not blatant and obvious, I have a serious problem with postings such as these. R.C. 2923.126(C)(3)(a) requires "a sign in a conspicuous location," and I while it may be "visible," I do not consider a single rule buried in a long list of the establishment's rules to be in compliance with the statute. A couple of local businesses have such "signage," and I do not believe that any court of competent jurisdiction would consider that to comply with the statute. Naturally, if you are asked to leave, you are obliged to do so, but I would not blame anyone who claims that he/she did not see the written notice.
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Re: Chicken Little: Mall Cop

Post by JediSkipdogg »

Werz wrote:
JediSkipdogg wrote:Kenwood Towne Center is sort of posted. They are not posted on the doors but are posted in their code of conduct which can be found inside every entrance and also be found here. IMO....it's not an envelope to push that they are not posted as we would like or it could be pushed the wrong way.
Despite some of the questionable complaints I have read about postings which are not blatant and obvious, I have a serious problem with postings such as these. R.C. 2923.126(C)(3)(a) requires "a sign in a conspicuous location," and I while it may be "visible," I do not consider a single rule buried in a long list of the establishment's rules to be in compliance with the statute. A couple of local businesses have such "signage," and I do not believe that any court of competent jurisdiction would consider that to comply with the statute. Naturally, if you are asked to leave, you are obliged to do so, but I would not blame anyone who claims that he/she did not see the written notice.
That's true but I don't think anyone can say security is wrong when they say the mall is no guns allowed. Technically security is right. I just want to make sure people don't argue that they aren't posted and want to get in a disagreement with security or the sheriff's office for it. Doing so may make it posted like everywhere else.
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Re: Chicken Little: Mall Cop

Post by glocksmith »

That's an old issue which continues to go unadressed. Most malls have one or two of the same type of sign posted at the main mall entrances. Problem is....if you enter the main mall through a store which has its own exterior doors...then you can enter the main mall without ever having seen the postings. Here in Cincy, Northgate Mall has a dubiously worded sign which reads something to the effect of "no unauthorized weapons on the premesis"....unauthorized is a pretty vague term which could be interpreted in many ways.
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Re: Chicken Little: Mall Cop

Post by Vex »

JediSkipdogg wrote: That's true but I don't think anyone can say security is wrong when they say the mall is no guns allowed. Technically security is right. I just want to make sure people don't argue that they aren't posted and want to get in a disagreement with security or the sheriff's office for it. Doing so may make it posted like everywhere else.
glocksmith wrote:That's an old issue which continues to go unadressed. Most malls have one or two of the same type of sign posted at the main mall entrances. Problem is....if you enter the main mall through a store which has its own exterior doors...then you can enter the main mall without ever having seen the postings. Here in Cincy, Northgate Mall has a dubiously worded sign which reads something to the effect of "no unauthorized weapons on the premesis"....unauthorized is a pretty vague term which could be interpreted in many ways.
Even if you never, ever see a posted sign, you must leave once verbally notified of the policy.

The classic "I can do what I want because you don't have a sign," argument is a great way to end up in jail.
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Re: Chicken Little: Mall Cop

Post by 147Doc »

I'd also tack this on to Jedi's post:

The mall referenced in this post is the Kenwood Towne Center. It is north east of the interesection of Montgomery Rd and Kenwood Rd, west of I-71.

Across Montgomery, Rd, south east of the intersection, is Sycamore Plaza. I believe the OP is incorrect in saying it is posted. It certainly USED to be posted, but there's a thread here discussing the removal of signs back in Feb 2012.
http://ohioccwforums.org/viewtopic.php? ... &p=4067018" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Both are in Hamilton County Sheriff jurisdiction, in Sycamore Township.


(Of note only to folks older and wise)
The Towne Center was originally Kenwood Plaza, and Sycamore Plaza was originally Kenwood Mall.
The original Plaza was one log strip of stores, open-air storefronts. It got a MAJOR expansion to add store and make an indoor, two and three story complex. If you know where the originals are, it's quite amazing to think back.
The original mall was one of the first indoor malls around here. It was single story, with a large height center area. It is now mostly open-air, and only has four or five stores that open into the atrium. (Barnes and Noble, Dicks, Macy's furniture, empty storefront, and empty storefront. One of those gets a Halloween shop most years.)
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Re: Chicken Little: Mall Cop

Post by concreteguy »

Unless the broken down vehicle was "in the mall", the officer was incorrect.
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Re: Chicken Little: Mall Cop

Post by Werz »

concreteguy wrote:Unless the broken down vehicle was "in the mall", the officer was incorrect.
The combination of being bent over into the engine bay and a blustery day resulted in my previously concealed pistol becoming plainly visible at the right moment for the young, plus sized, newly hired girl security guard/officer to drive by in the mall security SUV and see it.
Like it or not, that is sufficient for the officer to inquire about CHL status.
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Re: Chicken Little: Mall Cop

Post by Vex »

concreteguy wrote:Unless the broken down vehicle was "in the mall", the officer was incorrect.
What if the mall owns the streets and sidewalks around the actual buildings?
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Re: Chicken Little: Mall Cop

Post by 147Doc »

Vex wrote:
concreteguy wrote:Unless the broken down vehicle was "in the mall", the officer was incorrect.
What if the mall owns the streets and sidewalks around the actual buildings?
Couldn't say what the law is around that point, but it doesn't matter here... the mall is surrounded by a conventional parking lot and parking garage, and the streets form a boundary outside that.
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Re: Chicken Little: Mall Cop

Post by Vex »

147Doc wrote:
Vex wrote:
concreteguy wrote:Unless the broken down vehicle was "in the mall", the officer was incorrect.
What if the mall owns the streets and sidewalks around the actual buildings?
Couldn't say what the law is around that point, but it doesn't matter here... the mall is surrounded by a conventional parking lot and parking garage, and the streets form a boundary outside that.
The reason I bring it up is because a lot of these "town center" designs include streets and sidewalks owned by the private entity. There's often no way to know you're on private property until someone tells you, and in one case I'm aware of the ownership of a single street changes four times between three different entities (two private, one city) over a quarter mile strip.
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Re: Chicken Little: Mall Cop

Post by OldManTod »

I found much humor in Werz comment about knowing your friends & plus sizes - I chortled.

Malls are tricky with their fancy hidden signs and stuff.
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Re: Chicken Little: Mall Cop

Post by color of law »

A private shopping area, per the U.S. Supreme Court, that gives the appearance of a city, town or village, in effect, extends persons their constitutional rights to that private property. Stop signs, sidewalks and streets conveys such perception.

Neither of these shopping malls give that appearance. We know that R.C. 2923.126 addresses parking lots. The bottom line is once the deputy sheriff was satisfied that the concealed carrier was licensed and complied with the law, end of story.

Lets face it, most persons are not fluent in their job duties and/or the outside forces that effect their job duties. This also applies the police officers.

If the mall cop did call the sheriff what was she going to accomplish, file a civil complaint?
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Re: Chicken Little: Mall Cop

Post by Vex »

color of law wrote:A private shopping area, per the U.S. Supreme Court, that gives the appearance of a city, town or village, in effect, extends persons their constitutional rights to that private property. Stop signs, sidewalks and streets conveys such perception.
If you're talking about Pruneyard, your post is leaving out a lot of relevant information as to the validity and application of the decision.
Neither of these shopping malls give that appearance. We know that R.C. 2923.126 addresses parking lots. The bottom line is once the deputy sheriff was satisfied that the concealed carrier was licensed and complied with the law, end of story.
If it was on privately owned property and he refused to leave when asked, it's just the beginning of the story.
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Re: Chicken Little: Mall Cop

Post by JediSkipdogg »

Vex wrote:
color of law wrote:A private shopping area, per the U.S. Supreme Court, that gives the appearance of a city, town or village, in effect, extends persons their constitutional rights to that private property. Stop signs, sidewalks and streets conveys such perception.
If you're talking about Pruneyard, your post is leaving out a lot of relevant information as to the validity and application of the decision.
Neither of these shopping malls give that appearance. We know that R.C. 2923.126 addresses parking lots. The bottom line is once the deputy sheriff was satisfied that the concealed carrier was licensed and complied with the law, end of story.
If it was on privately owned property and he refused to leave when asked, it's just the beginning of the story.
That's one reason I don't understand why so many make the big deal out of it being civil. What does that really get us? Unless you are caught reading the sign or have been previously warned about being in a business, 99.9% of the times the police are going to give you a warning, tell you to leave, and let you go.

For the parking lot statute, if a person in control of said property is there (and I believe we can say security is in control of a mall's property) and they say something isn't allowed, whether inside the building or a location primarily used as a parking lot, both outcomes still exist. You comply or face arrest.

I don't understand how one can say the police can't arrest you because you are in a parking lot and a person in control says you aren't welcome.
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Re: Chicken Little: Mall Cop

Post by color of law »

JediSkipdogg wrote:
Vex wrote:
color of law wrote:A private shopping area, per the U.S. Supreme Court, that gives the appearance of a city, town or village, in effect, extends persons their constitutional rights to that private property. Stop signs, sidewalks and streets conveys such perception.
If you're talking about Pruneyard, your post is leaving out a lot of relevant information as to the validity and application of the decision.
Neither of these shopping malls give that appearance. We know that R.C. 2923.126 addresses parking lots. The bottom line is once the deputy sheriff was satisfied that the concealed carrier was licensed and complied with the law, end of story.
If it was on privately owned property and he refused to leave when asked, it's just the beginning of the story.
That's one reason I don't understand why so many make the big deal out of it being civil. What does that really get us? Unless you are caught reading the sign or have been previously warned about being in a business, 99.9% of the times the police are going to give you a warning, tell you to leave, and let you go.

For the parking lot statute, if a person in control of said property is there (and I believe we can say security is in control of a mall's property) and they say something isn't allowed, whether inside the building or a location primarily used as a parking lot, both outcomes still exist. You comply or face arrest.

I don't understand how one can say the police can't arrest you because you are in a parking lot and a person in control says you aren't welcome.
Because the law says it. You cannot have a law that says that if you do X in Y area it's a civil matter and then also say that if you do the same X in Y area it's a criminal matter. It makes one of the laws superfluous.

A sign is posted, it's civil. A sign is not posted, it's criminal.

I went through this over on Buckeye. http://forums.buckeyefirearms.org/viewt ... 11&t=18882" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I'm curious what Werz's take is on the situation.

Also, I'm not referring to Pruneyard Shopping Center v. Robins, 447 U.S. 74.
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