Interesting encounter today

[gaptrick]

Dropping notification doesn't mean nobody knows whos armed and who isn't, it just makes the officer ask if there are guns present and takes the responsibility away from the citizen.

Wouldn't this be the first thing a cop would ask when approaching any disturbance or an official stop outside of a vehicle? I know it would be the first thing I'd ask in ANY scenario. And until it was determined if there were ar weren't guns on the scene, I'd be going with the notion ALL were armed...

I sure don't see the down side...

[ApexShootingTactics]

Joe, I am talking about the 1%. Nothing is fool proof. I was simply explaining the 1%. Like I said in my earlier post if notification went away I wouldn't have any heart burn about it.

Concerning your OC scenario. That is totally different than what we are talking about. I am specifically talking about responding to a scene where the situation is already tense. Something you need to understand about LE, no one calls us when they are having a good day and the information we are given prior to arrival is not always correct.

[Joe Sixpack]

I see well you mentioned legal status so I thought that was the primary concern.

If you're worried about an emotional outburst in the form of gun fire, And this as a valid concern as no one is immune to emotional break down.. even LEO's have committed crimes on and off the clock.

Im not a LEO but if it was me I'd try to identify who is the most distraught and focus attention on them to try and calm them down.
If they're both upset I'd try to separate them (hopefully you have a partner) and try to talk to them separately and calm them down.

Under Ohio law you can temporary disarm people during a stop so if you feel the situation warrants it you can always fall back on that.

These comes back to how do I know they're armed? well as I said notification only works on those who have peaceful intent, doesn't matter who's burden it falls on (notification or not)
I just read a story where they recovered a NAA 22lr revolver from a girls vagina @ the country jail.
So you just never know that's why you gotta always assume they're armed.

All you can do is try to spot the signs in demeanor, body language, and if all else fails reflex and body armor.
I dunno what else to suggest I assume they would have covered this scenario in academy.

[JoeM]

...Basically we snuck up on him and he immediately notified us of his CHL status. This was a good thing because with in a few seconds of contact the wind blew his jacket aside and the handgun was visible. Just another "what if" he hadn't told us.

I'm curious - what would you have done differently if, for example, in his surprise of being snuck up on, he didn't have the presence of mind to notify before the gun became visible? I'm not trying to be antagonistic - just wondering what standard operating procedure would be at that point.

[A_F]

"Stop resisting!" With 4 tasers in his back. Lol.

I jest.

[Werz]

Apex what if you seen someone OC'ing down the street, you don't know their "legal" status either.

"If the person is stopped for a law enforcement purpose and is carrying a concealed handgun ..." R.C. 2923.12(B).

In Ohio, open carry is presumptively lawful, while concealed carry is presumptively unlawful. Not the same thing.

If there is no notification It's simple, Ask about the ones you notice, The ones you don't assume everyone is armed anyway.
Remember guns aren't the only weapons, knives are even easier to conceal and at talking distance just as deadly.

I'm not a fan of mandatory notification. I am a fan of voluntary notification if a peace officer is approaching an obviously hostile situation. If a peace officer has a reasonable suspicion that a person is carrying a concealed firearm, either from hearing statements made or from observing physical evidence of the same, the officer is justified in detaining the person and performing a limited pat down search, and the presumption of unlawful conduct continues until the officer is provided with adequate proof that the person is licensed to carry concealed. In a tense situation, it is much wiser to notify and get that issue out of the way.

[Joe Sixpack]

Werz is it lawful to pull people over to make sure they have a drivers license?
You can't tell compliance by simple observation.

[ApexShootingTactics]

...Basically we snuck up on him and he immediately notified us of his CHL status. This was a good thing because with in a few seconds of contact the wind blew his jacket aside and the handgun was visible. Just another "what if" he hadn't told us.

I'm curious - what would you have done differently if, for example, in his surprise of being snuck up on, he didn't have the presence of mind to notify before the gun became visible? I'm not trying to be antagonistic - just wondering what standard operating procedure would be at that point.

Joe M,
It is tough to put everything into context but I had the element of surprise, and cover going for me. With distance and surprise, verbal commands in the instance would be considered the best option.

[Werz]

Werz is it lawful to pull people over to make sure they have a drivers license?
You can't tell compliance by simple observation.

Rhetorical questions prove nothing.

Bottom Line:

1. If state law allows open carry without licensure, observation of open carry does not constitute reasonable articulable suspicion to detain. See United States v. Black, 707 F.3d 531 (4th Cir. 2013).
2. If state law prohibits concealed carry without licensure, evidence of concealed carry does constitute reasonable articulable suspicion to detain. See United States v. Lewis, 674 F.3d 1298, 1304 (11th Cir. 2012).

I stand by what I said earlier.

[WestonDon]

Just a comment on the "heated" traffic accident mentioned earlier. I like to think I would try very hard to avoid heated discussions while armed. Something I think most of us here would try to do also.

[Werz]

Just a comment on the "heated" traffic accident mentioned earlier. I like to think I would try very hard to avoid heated discussions while armed. Something I think most of us here would try to do also.

Agreed. And I think most peace officers are much less concerned with "gun" than they are with "agitated male with gun."