Use this forum to post your experience with encounters with law enforcement, criminals, or other encounters as a result of your firearm or potential to be carrying one.
ATGglobal wrote: This post should bring up a lot of thoughts about how we conduct our ATM business. How many of us when we pull up to the ATM put or vehicles in park or even shut them off. I know with my vehicle as soon as I put the car in park all 4 doors come unlocked leaving my passenger side completely breach able. Especially with my attention slightly focused elsewhere. Even when I read this quote I got a chill because I have done just that. Great job being aware of what was going on to the OP and not really accepting what the guy was saying was his intentions.
I don't put my vehicle in park or turn it off at the ATM or teller window - not because I'd thought about this scenario but because that's just how I've always done it. I'm glad my vechicle doesn't automatically unlock my doors when I put it in park - I do *not* like that "feature".
Lots to think about in this thread...
Christian, Husband, Father
NRA Life Member
NRA Certified Range Safety Officer
NRA Certified Pistol & Rifle Instructor
I have a very simple solution for ATM security. I simply do not use ATMs. I got along just fine before they were invented and just never got into the habit of using one. In fact I don't believe I have ever used an ATM. It's really not that hard to get along without them.
I guess there are some advantages to being "experienced".
I believe in American exceptianalism
Fear the government that fears your guns
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It is an infrequent thing for me, but there are times I find them indispensable - like when I find I need cash outside of normal banking hours. I don't tend to carry a lot of cash on me, nor do I keep a lot of cash at home.
Christian, Husband, Father
NRA Life Member
NRA Certified Range Safety Officer
NRA Certified Pistol & Rifle Instructor
True they are not the safest thing as it is, but I too rarely use them. Like this time, I needed some cash quick, and it was raining so I didn't want to get out in it either. In any case, I'll stick to my usual and not use them.
Sevens wrote:
carmen fovozzo wrote:
There is no law that I'm aware of that I can't have my gun on my lap in my car with a CHL...
Well, were you aware of the improper handling law that we had hanging over us for years and years and years in Ohio before it's recent repeal/update?
IMO having your gun on you lap while using an ATM machine does not fall under the old restrictions either. The OP was on private property, Not driving down a road, not operating the vehicle. They were sitting still in a parking lot. The old restrictions applied to when you were driving down the road so even if he didn't have the potential BG situation if they wanted to bring their weapon up onto their lap while they were waiting to complete their ATM business it would have been fine.
I dont want to hijack this thread, but these discussions about concern over taking gun out of holster and having on lap or seat next to you is really bothering me....
When we went thru CCW classes end of 2012, there was no law saying how we had to hold our gun in a car. Nothing to do with one way ok on private property, not ok on public. Nothing to do with one way while driving down road vs sitting still. Nothing about car on or off.
Did our instructor mislead us? I sometimes have my gun out of holster on my passenger seat when I am alone in the car in a not so great area or on a long drive (much more comfy than on my hip). I was told I was not breaking any law. Now when I recently had business in WV I did NOT have it out as my understanding their state law does not allow such.
I would INSTANTLY have pulled my gun out of holster and put on my lap in this situation with NO thought of old fashion, no longer against OH law brandishing. Am I missing something or should I be studying how it used to be in the olden days and pretend the law is not what it is today?
Phillip: The law used to specify how one could carry a gun, with a license, while in a car. Those restrictions are no longer in effect so you are not missing anything.
The tyrant will always find a pretext for his tyranny
Mark
NRA Training Counselor-Rifle, Pistol, Shotgun, Reloading, Personal Protection in the Home, Personal Protection Outside the Home, Home Firearms Safety, Chief RSO. NRA Endowment Life member.
robkjv wrote:Distance: he was standing about 1.5 yards away from my open window.
Most recent article from Force Science News reported on some time and motion studies at different distances. It concluded that a man with a knife from 5 feet away can slash you in under 1/3 of a second.
That is quicker than most people can react. Action beats reaction.
I'd have been very vocal about getting the heck away from my car. In very impolite terms.
WayneB wrote:It seems that the only (non-cleaning) reason to ever pull a gun out of its holster is to shoot someone. (The anti's love to spew that as well.)
There must be some latitude between "you can't pull that out - it's brandishing and causing panic and you're committing aggravated menacing, etc.etc." and "if you pull it you better shoot it". Do you really have to be in fear of your life in order to take a few steps to shorten the time to get the defensive weapon into position?
I don't think the whole "don't pull it unless you are going to shoot it" argument does not hold water.
If the intermediate step of drawing your firearm before there was justification to use deadly wasn't useful, we would not see it in common use, every day, in every police jurisdiction in the country.
phillip wrote:right, so why all the posts about moving, sitting, on lap, out of holster, etc?
The concern is that removing the gun from the holster in a very obvious manner could be considered aggravated menacing if there is no immediate threat apparent (uneasy situations don't count). Doing it discretely so that it is is immediately available is fine so long as it does not cause alarm to the potential perp or innocent no-nothing.
-- Mike
"The smallest minority on earth is the individual. Those who deny individual rights cannot claim to be defenders of minorities." - Ayn Rand
Keep in mind that Ohio has a very vague set of "requirements" for instruction and, as is likely the case everywhere and on every different facet of the law (no matter the subject), many things nearly require a lawyer to understand or are simply too vague as written in the law and a TRUE definition is one that is found by case law... i.e., becoming a "test subject."
My point? The instructor merely needs to instruct you to the point where he believes you have familiarity with how to handle a loaded handgun and you have a rough outline of the State's expectations of your proposed actions when going about armed.
I won't ever buy anyone's argument from a $75-$150 concealed carry class that their instructor is somehow at almost -any- level of fault because they didn't do their due diligence to figure out where their own actions fit within the boundaries of the law.
I like to swap brass... and I'm looking for .32 H&R Mag, .327 Fed Mag, .380 Auto and 10mm. If you have some and would like to swap for something else, send me a note!
phillip wrote:Did our instructor mislead us? I sometimes have my gun out of holster on my passenger seat when I am alone in the car in a not so great area or on a long drive (much more comfy than on my hip). I was told I was not breaking any law. Now when I recently had business in WV I did NOT have it out as my understanding their state law does not allow such.
I would INSTANTLY have pulled my gun out of holster and put on my lap in this situation with NO thought of old fashion, no longer against OH law brandishing. Am I missing something or should I be studying how it used to be in the olden days and pretend the law is not what it is today?
There are lots of laws. If it's on your seat & you have your CHL you're transporting the handgun legally, though possibly not wisely.
What happens if you have to slam on the brakes or get rear ended? Is there anything to stop the gun from flying forward? Will it stay secured in the holster? If not, that raises the possibility (although slight) that it might snag on something and discharge. If your gun goes off in public you should expect to get arrested while it's straightened out.
There have been reports of people claiming another driver saw their gun on the seat and called the police on them. Is that a reasonable concern? I can't say, but again if someone reports MWAG and police pull you over and find an unsecured gun your chances of being arrested are pretty high.
People don't get arrested because of whether or not they actually break the law, they get arrested because there's sufficient evidence to indicate to police that the person probably broke the law. You can behave 100% legally and at the same time in a way that increases your chance of being arrested.
There are lots of laws. If it's on your seat & you have your CHL you're transporting the handgun legally, though possibly not wisely....What happens if you have to slam on the brakes or get rear ended? Is there anything to stop the gun from flying forward? Will it stay secured in the holster? If not, that raises the possibility (although slight) that it might snag on something and discharge. If your gun goes off in public you should expect to get arrested while it's straightened out.
There have been reports of people claiming another driver saw their gun on the seat and called the police on them. Is that a reasonable concern? I can't say, but again if someone reports MWAG and police pull you over and find an unsecured gun your chances of being arrested are pretty high.
People don't get arrested because of whether or not they actually break the law, they get arrested because there's sufficient evidence to indicate to police that the person probably broke the law. You can behave 100% legally and at the same time in a way that increases your chance of being arrested.
My points exactly. Of course I have read and read and read and studied the laws and post for the last year since getting my CHL and am VERY aware of the law as well as the dumb things ignorant cops can do.... that said....
I would like to comment on your comments in order....
1) anything to stop my gun from flying off the seat in emergency stop? NOPE
2) Who said it was IN a holster?
3) Possibility of snag & discharge? IF there was, I certainly would NOT travel this way. But a Glock with a Cominolli safty will NOT discharge if snagged. If my Glock did not have this Cominolli safety I certainly would NEVER travel with it on the seat - in or out of a holster.
4) the day I see a post in Ohio of MWAG arrest due to some jerk seeing a gun on a seat, I will be right there with money to help not only the defense but the prosecution of the LE who made such a nonsense arrest. I would encourage everyone else to do the same!
You've clearly thought it through, I'll just point out that you're putting a lot of trust in that safety. Safeties are designed to be disengaged. Human beings are naturally fallible and it's easy to 'think' a gun is safe when it isn't. If that weren't the case there'd just be 1 basic safety rule instead of 4.
