Man says he shot at four males who attacked him

Use this forum to post your experience with encounters with law enforcement, criminals, or other encounters as a result of your firearm or potential to be carrying one.

Moderators: Chuck, Mustang380gal, Coordinators, Moderators

User avatar
Tourist
OFCC Patron Member
OFCC Patron Member
Posts: 2931
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 9:10 pm
Location: Chesterland

Re: Man says he shot at four males who attacked him

Post by Tourist »

Guys I don't know his motive. I don't believe we could tell from the limited information in the article.

However, "Grabbing his gun before he went out" does not mean he was looking for trouble. I don't know about you, but I always grab my gun before I go out. That is what concealed carry is all about. Would you go out at night (or even in the day) without your weapon?
GWC
Posts: 4494
Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2005 12:12 pm
Location: Lake County 44077

Re: Man says he shot at four males who attacked him

Post by GWC »

Tourist wrote:Guys I don't know his motive. I don't believe we could tell from the limited information in the article.

However, "Grabbing his gun before he went out" does not mean he was looking for trouble. I don't know about you, but I always grab my gun before I go out. That is what concealed carry is all about. Would you go out at night (or even in the day) without your weapon?

Eh...Nope!
"The police are not here to create disorder. They are here to preserve disorder".
Mayor Richard Daley, 1968

I am not a lawyer. Nothing I say or write is legal advice.
User avatar
Shaolin_dragon
Posts: 1308
Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2009 2:41 pm
Location: Vermilion, Ohio
Contact:

Re: Man says he shot at four males who attacked him

Post by Shaolin_dragon »

GWC/Schmeig..That long and short reply are the sort of replies I was looking for, and I very much thank you. Explained in that way, I can see now that, going by the article alone and jumping to conclusions, really isn't the wise thing to do, but as a lot of people are apt to do, we did do just that, so it does look like he went out looking for trouble. But reading those two replies makes me think about the other scenarios that it could have been.
Its very possibly my lack of knowledge/experience, or fear of wanting to do everything exactly by the book (call the cops, stay in the house, thinking about Castle Doctrine etc), that makes me read the article as being he did wrong, by going out in the first place.

Thanks guys, for the mind opener. :)
I carry, because I care!
jburtonpdx
Posts: 1650
Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2005 4:43 pm
Location: Outville

Re: Man says he shot at four males who attacked him

Post by jburtonpdx »

I always 'grab my gun' before I go out looking for anything including milk. For me its no different then 'grabbing my pants' or 'grabbing my coat' or 'grabbing my keys'...

Would I have done the same as this guy? I have no idea. Do I believe we have an accurate picture of what happened? No, I don't believe much of anything I read in newspapers especially as it pertains the the use of firearms or any tool for self defense.

refer to Jeff Cooper:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Cooper" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The media insist that crime is the major concern of the American public today. In this connection they generally push the point that a disarmed society would be a crime-free society. They will not accept the truth that if you take all the guns off the street you still will have a crime problem, whereas if you take the criminals off the street you cannot have a gun problem
It's not what you look at that matters, it's what you see.
Henry David Thoreau
Learn to fight and practice what you learn.
walnut red
Posts: 1265
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2007 7:59 am
Location: Morrow County

Re: Man says he shot at four males who attacked him

Post by walnut red »

How would this story be interpreted differently if the person had not been a CCW holder. Lets say the person saw suspicious activity and went to investigate while open carrying a handgun. Or, let's say the story was moved to my neighborhood.

Friday night Mr X saw suspicious activity around his barn. He promptly called the sheriff, secured his flashlight and shotgun and went to investigate. While investigating Mr X was attacked by four disadvantages youths who were just turning their lives around. Mr X fired at them but it is unknown if any of the attackers were struck.

It is highly unlikely this would be seen as Mr X looking for trouble or being the aggressor. At least around here.
User avatar
TSiWRX
OFCC Patron Member
OFCC Patron Member
Posts: 6676
Joined: Fri Jan 28, 2011 8:33 pm
Location: Cleveland/Shaker Heights

Re: Man says he shot at four males who attacked him

Post by TSiWRX »

Thank you, everyone, for continuing to contribute to this discussion - indeed, "the other reads" of what was stated in the article, both explicitly written/worded in the article as well as what could have been inferred to be different, was indeed what I was thinking about, in my previous follow-up.

Thanks, everyone! I'm learning! :)

Shaolin and schmieg, indeed, both of those are what I fear for Mr. Goldsmith. Hopefully, the situation was not as the article (seemed to me to have) portrayed.

GWC, tourist and walnut, those are indeed the types of examples that I've been going over, in my head.

One of the more recent occurrences in our neighborhood that put me on the path towards seeking a CCW/CHL is the fact that we had an intruder/suspect that ran onto my property - my driveway - who saw me (I was working on the car) then scampered over our fence and dived under our neighbor's patio/porch. When I yelled at him (those who know me know how loud I can be :P ), he displaced, and ran over my neighbor's fence into another's yard. By that time, an SHPD officer had come screeching to a halt - they'd been looking for this individual - and I pointed him over the fence.

GWC, your painted scenario well reflects some of what I actually experienced. Even without a CHL, given my access to our lower-level home-defense firearms, it again follows close.
Allen - Shaker Heights, Ohio
User avatar
scriz
Posts: 960
Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2009 2:55 pm
Location: Dayton

Re: Man says he shot at four males who attacked him

Post by scriz »

walnut red wrote:How would this story be interpreted differently if the person had not been a CCW holder. Lets say the person saw suspicious activity and went to investigate while open carrying a handgun. Or, let's say the story was moved to my neighborhood.

Friday night Mr X saw suspicious activity around his barn. He promptly called the sheriff, secured his flashlight and shotgun and went to investigate. While investigating Mr X was attacked by four disadvantages youths who were just turning their lives around. Mr X fired at them but it is unknown if any of the attackers were struck.

It is highly unlikely this would be seen as Mr X looking for trouble or being the aggressor. At least around here.
"around his barn" implies they were on your property. You would be justified in shooting them. In the article, however, it is not portrayed whether they were on "his" property, or if they were on "public" property, etc.

Although I would not go straight to shooting anyone just for being on my property, I could see how it would be justified.

Me: "Hey , get off my land!"

Kid: "Screw you, little man with a shotgun!"

Me: "RAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWLKWJL@#K$%J@#LK$JL!!!!!!!!!!!!!, Bang"

HAH :mrgreen:
User avatar
schmieg
OFCC Coordinator
OFCC Coordinator
Posts: 5746
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 11:11 pm
Location: Madeira, Ohio

Re: Man says he shot at four males who attacked him

Post by schmieg »

scriz wrote:
walnut red wrote:How would this story be interpreted differently if the person had not been a CCW holder. Lets say the person saw suspicious activity and went to investigate while open carrying a handgun. Or, let's say the story was moved to my neighborhood.

Friday night Mr X saw suspicious activity around his barn. He promptly called the sheriff, secured his flashlight and shotgun and went to investigate. While investigating Mr X was attacked by four disadvantages youths who were just turning their lives around. Mr X fired at them but it is unknown if any of the attackers were struck.

It is highly unlikely this would be seen as Mr X looking for trouble or being the aggressor. At least around here.
"around his barn" implies they were on your property. You would be justified in shooting them. In the article, however, it is not portrayed whether they were on "his" property, or if they were on "public" property, etc.

Although I would not go straight to shooting anyone just for being on my property, I could see how it would be justified.

Me: "Hey , get off my land!"

Kid: "Screw you, little man with a shotgun!"

Me: "RAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWLKWJL@#K$%J@#LK$JL!!!!!!!!!!!!!, Bang"

HAH :mrgreen:
And you go to jail. If the kid isn't threatening you, you can't shoot them just because they are rude trespassers. That is an illegal use of deadly force.
-- Mike

"The smallest minority on earth is the individual. Those who deny individual rights cannot claim to be defenders of minorities." - Ayn Rand
jose45
Posts: 1727
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 5:22 pm
Location: Geauga County

Re: Man says he shot at four males who attacked him

Post by jose45 »

Apparently there was time for 3 911 calls after the fact but no time for 1 before he went out? Why not call 911 and prepare to be a good witness.I just can't see arming yourself and going out to defend unoccupied vehicles in a parking lot.I don't fault the man for doing what he did.That was his decision,right or wrong.But I bet he's gonna regret not letting the cops handle it.
"Lord, make me fast and accurate.Let my aim be true and my hand faster than those who would seek to destroy me.
Grant me victory over my foes and those that wish to do harm to me and mine.Let not my last thought be "If I only had my gun"
And Lord,if today is truly the day that you call me home.Let Me Die In A Pile of Hot Empty Brass.- Patriots Prayer- III% NRA,OFCC
User avatar
schmieg
OFCC Coordinator
OFCC Coordinator
Posts: 5746
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 11:11 pm
Location: Madeira, Ohio

Re: Man says he shot at four males who attacked him

Post by schmieg »

jose45 wrote:Apparently there was time for 3 911 calls after the fact but no time for 1 before he went out? Why not call 911 and prepare to be a good witness.I just can't see arming yourself and going out to defend unoccupied vehicles in a parking lot.I don't fault the man for doing what he did.That was his decision,right or wrong.But I bet he's gonna regret not letting the cops handle it.
He probably should have, but he may not have been sure that there was a problem and wanted to check before he got the authorities involved. I can relate to that thought pattern in today's paucity of police resources.
-- Mike

"The smallest minority on earth is the individual. Those who deny individual rights cannot claim to be defenders of minorities." - Ayn Rand
jose45
Posts: 1727
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 5:22 pm
Location: Geauga County

Re: Man says he shot at four males who attacked him

Post by jose45 »

schmieg wrote:
jose45 wrote:Apparently there was time for 3 911 calls after the fact but no time for 1 before he went out? Why not call 911 and prepare to be a good witness.I just can't see arming yourself and going out to defend unoccupied vehicles in a parking lot.I don't fault the man for doing what he did.That was his decision,right or wrong.But I bet he's gonna regret not letting the cops handle it.
He probably should have, but he may not have been sure that there was a problem and wanted to check before he got the authorities involved. I can relate to that thought pattern in today's paucity of police resources.
Sounds like he did in fact determine there was a problem.Like when he was attacked.Kinda like walking out on a frozen lake to determine if the ice is thick enough for skating.When you hear the loud cracking noise ya got your answer.Hopefully his defense of going out to see if there was a problem will be enough to let him escape being charged with anything.
"Lord, make me fast and accurate.Let my aim be true and my hand faster than those who would seek to destroy me.
Grant me victory over my foes and those that wish to do harm to me and mine.Let not my last thought be "If I only had my gun"
And Lord,if today is truly the day that you call me home.Let Me Die In A Pile of Hot Empty Brass.- Patriots Prayer- III% NRA,OFCC
User avatar
scriz
Posts: 960
Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2009 2:55 pm
Location: Dayton

Re: Man says he shot at four males who attacked him

Post by scriz »

schmieg wrote:
scriz wrote: Although I would not go straight to shooting anyone just for being on my property, I could see how it would be justified.
And you go to jail. If the kid isn't threatening you, you can't shoot them just because they are rude trespassers. That is an illegal use of deadly force.
You did read that..right? I'm aware of the rules of engagement. :)
GroveTuckey
Posts: 66
Joined: Tue May 04, 2010 9:32 pm
Location: Glock 26

Re: Man says he shot at four males who attacked him

Post by GroveTuckey »

His girlfriend contacted police to report two of them were in the area of Berwick Court and Brunswick Drive and two others were hiding in a bush. The dispatcher told her to call back if the men re-entered the parking lot, the report said.
I wonder if this was alluding to that they were not going to come out until they re-entered the parking lot.

I agree with schmieg and GWC.

Anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law.
GWC
Posts: 4494
Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2005 12:12 pm
Location: Lake County 44077

Re: Man says he shot at four males who attacked him

Post by GWC »

scriz wrote:
schmieg wrote:
scriz wrote: Although I would not go straight to shooting anyone just for being on my property, I could see how it would be justified.
And you go to jail. If the kid isn't threatening you, you can't shoot them just because they are rude trespassers. That is an illegal use of deadly force.
You did read that..right? I'm aware of the rules of engagement. :)

I read your post, and I am not so sure that you are. You must be in actual fear of death or serious physical harm to employ deadly force (that is, to shoot someone). Your post said:
Although I would not go straight to shooting anyone just for being on my property, I could see how it would be justified.

Me: "Hey , get off my land!"

Kid: "Screw you, little man with a shotgun!"

Me: "RAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWLKWJL@#K$%J@#LK$JL!!!!!!!!!!!!!, Bang"
Please explain how that is legally justified.
"The police are not here to create disorder. They are here to preserve disorder".
Mayor Richard Daley, 1968

I am not a lawyer. Nothing I say or write is legal advice.
User avatar
scriz
Posts: 960
Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2009 2:55 pm
Location: Dayton

Re: Man says he shot at four males who attacked him

Post by scriz »

GWC wrote:
Please explain how that is legally justified.
I served in the military for 4 years, for which 2 of those years I served as armed security personnel guarding an Aircraft Carrier. I'm well aware of the rules of engagement.

I said it would be justified, I did not say legally justified.
Post Reply