Man says he shot at four males who attacked him

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Shaolin_dragon
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Man says he shot at four males who attacked him

Post by Shaolin_dragon »

http://chronicle.northcoastnow.com/2011 ... acked-him/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
ELYRIA — An Elyria man said he shot at four males who jumped him overnight.
As the comment under the article states, this guy could end up in some serious hot water. Escalating the situation to name one. he should have just called the cops and let them deal with it.
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Shaolin_dragon
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Re: Man says he shot at four males who attacked him

Post by Shaolin_dragon »

Ack!! sorry! I posted in the wrong sub-forum.. Can someone move to the correct please? :oops:

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Fonejack54
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Re: Man says he shot at four males who attacked him

Post by Fonejack54 »

This is exactly what police fear from CHL holders, although, thank God, most of us would never grab our gun and go looking for perps as this guy did. I hope the prosecutor just counts it self defense since he was attacked, but he's treading on thin ice.
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scriz
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Re: Man says he shot at four males who attacked him

Post by scriz »

Fonejack54 wrote:This is exactly what police fear from CHL holders, although, thank God, most of us would never grab our gun and go looking for perps as this guy did. I hope the prosecutor just counts it self defense since he was attacked, but he's treading on thin ice.
This probably won't happen, since the article reads he went and sought them out when he had no business to do so.
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Wileyone
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Re: Man says he shot at four males who attacked him

Post by Wileyone »

This should be an example of what NOT to do. :evil:
Sometimes being a good witness is better than taking a situation in your own hands.
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Re: Man says he shot at four males who attacked him

Post by XDSC9G30 »

Wileyone wrote:This should be an example of what NOT to do. :evil:
Sometimes being a good witness is better than taking a situation in your own hands.
Agreed. This is definately one of the dumbest things to do. When he used his weapon it was not in self defense as he went out looking for them, therefore he was the attacker.
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TSiWRX
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Re: Man says he shot at four males who attacked him

Post by TSiWRX »

One of the reasons I joined this community *before* seeking my CHL is to learn.

And this is a perfect example to learn from.

This is well-emphasized in the Concealed Carry Law booklet and also in the NRA materials, but nothing illustrates better than concrete examples.
Allen - Shaker Heights, Ohio
Shadow
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Re: Man says he shot at four males who attacked him

Post by Shadow »

In order to believe this guy did something wrong, you have to believe no citizen should look at a situation to determine if he or she is the victim of a crime.

In order to believe this guy did something wrong, you have to believe a person has no right to carry a gun all the time.

In order to believe this guy did something wrong, you have to believe this guy, and everyone else, should disarm themselves as soon as they suspect they may be victim of a crime.

In order to believe this guy did something wrong, you have to believe that when carrying a gun, you cannot use it when attacked.

In order to believe this guy did something wrong, you have to believe examining your own property in public is attacking someone.

In order to believe this guy did something wrong, you have to believe the police have an obligation to protect you and your property and because of that obligation, you do not have any right to protect your property and person.

What's considered 'common knowledge' is often wrong. Modern American Myth.

Everyone has the right to examine a public or personal private situation to determine if a crime is being comitted.

Everyone has the right to defend themselves.

No one has any guarantee of any police protection. That's why we have a 2nd Amendment.

I don't see where he 'escalated' anything or did anything illegal, based onthe news article.

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Re: Man says he shot at four males who attacked him

Post by jabeatty »

Shadow wrote:I don't see where he 'escalated' anything or did anything illegal, based on the news article.
Thank you for saving me the trouble of typing all that out.
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scriz
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Re: Man says he shot at four males who attacked him

Post by scriz »

So according to Shadow I believe that;

1. You shouldn't be allowed to carry a gun
2. Shouldn't have the right to defend youself
3. Shouldn't have the right to defend your property

:roll:

Media is notoriously liberal, so I'm sure there are some things that aren't put into the article. Maybe he saw them breaking into his car and went out to confront them or something, I don't know.
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Re: Man says he shot at four males who attacked him

Post by Harlie »

Shadow, +1
Keep a keen mind, eye and edge.
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Re: Man says he shot at four males who attacked him

Post by TSiWRX »

Like I said, I'm here to learn. So, given that, please do educate me. :)

Quoting from the article:
Goldsmith told officers he had first observed four young black males walking around the apartment complex’s parking lot looking into cars. Goldsmith got his gun from his home and went out looking for the men.
Mr. Goldsmith left his home to seek out men who appeared suspicious....

Why did he not call the police?

Based solely on the article, isn't that, alone, a big problem in terms of Ohio's CCW/CHL laws?

Based solely on the article, that's the facts as we know it.

But could it well be that the article did not portray the facts properly? Certainly.

Could it not be that he left the house solely with the intention of scaring the suspicious looking men away with either only his presence or even some verbal warnings, but instead was set-upon by the perpetrators? Certainly.

We don't know that, though - at least not at this point.

At this point, all the article says is that he grabbed his gun, and headed out to look for these men.

The moral debate could go any which way - and I do not believe it to be my place to debate Mr. Goldsmith's actions, based on the simple fact that he was there, and I was not: if I were in his shoes, would I have done the same (could it simply be that he'd grabbed his pistol like any of us would do as we leave the house, and only wanted to set about to make sure that his car - or that of his friends' or neighbors', were OK, until the police had arrived? - and instead was ambushed by one or more of the suspects? certainly)? who knows.

What I would like to be educated about is the strict legalities of the scenario. As we know it now, reading solely from the words of this small article, to me, it seems like he overstepped the bounds of being a good citizen and caring neighbor.
Allen - Shaker Heights, Ohio
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Shaolin_dragon
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Re: Man says he shot at four males who attacked him

Post by Shaolin_dragon »

TSi, I am here to learn also. I stand with you, in asking from these more tenured chaps, how they read this particular scenario. I agree with your points, and, coming to my own conclusion, I would read it as he broke the law in terms of CCW, by actually going out looking for trouble (which, in reality, is what he did, and we can deduce this, by the fact that the article states that he grabbed his gun before heading out, meaning he may have been expecting trouble from this confrontation) as opposed to calling the police, and alerting them to suspicious looking characters in the parking lot, looking into vehicles.

Gentlemen, the floor is yours.
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Re: Man says he shot at four males who attacked him

Post by schmieg »

Shaolin_dragon wrote:TSi, I am here to learn also. I stand with you, in asking from these more tenured chaps, how they read this particular scenario. I agree with your points, and, coming to my own conclusion, I would read it as he broke the law in terms of CCW, by actually going out looking for trouble (which, in reality, is what he did, and we can deduce this, by the fact that the article states that he grabbed his gun before heading out, meaning he may have been expecting trouble from this confrontation) as opposed to calling the police, and alerting them to suspicious looking characters in the parking lot, looking into vehicles.

Gentlemen, the floor is yours.
This is a case of the indivdual having the right to remain silent, but he lacked the ability to do so.

The defense to be raised if charges result is that he saw something suspicious, but not necessarily illegal, and he went to investigate while armed, a legal right. When the perps attacked him, they changed the situation to one of violence. A jury would decide the issue if the prosecutor decides to press charges against him.
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Re: Man says he shot at four males who attacked him

Post by GWC »

Its complicated. It mostly depends on his state of mind when he left the building he was in. The article is vague enough to allow various interpretations of what actually happened.

It seems that the first couple of posters interpreted the article to say in effect that Mr. Goldsmith left his home to confront four suspicious looking men in order protect some property from damage and/or theft. If that is what indeed happened, and he confronted four guys at gunpoint, he could be in some trouble, plus he needlessly put himself in jeopardy of being injured or killed.

If, on the other hand, he went out because he saw what looked suspicious, but was not sure if these guys were committing crimes, then lost sight of some or all of them and decided to go out to get a better view of what was going on before calling the police for what COULD be a false alarm, but was then jumped and needed to defend himself, he did nothing wrong in the legal sense, but could have employed better tactics.

Both scenarios (and many more) fit the "facts" as reported, but are very different situations.

There are competing factors to consider in any trip outside to see what is going on when you suspect that a crime is being committed. The AG booklet strongly discourages any action resembling law enforcement by CHL holders. But that is not law, that is advisory. Anyone that witnesses (or that reasonably believes they have witnessesed) a felony has the legal power of arrest in Ohio (and as far as I know, in all 50 states also). Most property crimes (theft, vandalism, etc.) in excess of $500 are felonies in Ohio. It is lawful to use some level of force, but not deadly force to protect property. And there is no requirement to be unarmed while either investigating whether something criminal is occurring (or has occured) or to deter a crime or while using legal force (but not deadly force) to protect property.

For instance, If I have a shed in my back yard, and someone is trying to break into my shed, I can go into my backyard and yell, "hey, get away from my shed" or even to chase the person away, maybe even threaten to cause or to actually cause physical harm (but not serious physical harm) to protect my shed and/or its contents. And it is legal (and prudent) for me to carry the gun that I am already carrying anyway, or even to slip a gun in my pocket before I leave the house if I am not already carrying (because I am licensed to carry a gun). It is prudent to do so because the thief may escalate his crime to robbery or felonious assault after I tell him to get lost.

If on the other hand, someone is breaking into my shed and I think or say "hey, NOBODY gets away with breaking into my shed" and I walk outside and shoot him to death, I would then be guilty of murder.

Someone's vague report of the simple facts in the two above scenarios could be identical, but in reality they are two very different actions. Press and radio and TV news reports are notoriously inaccurate most of the time (believe me, I have lots of first hand experience with that), even when there is a lot of detail. Vague reports like the one at the beginning of this thread is worse than most, and can be interpreted too many different ways to be much of any value to determine whether anyone's particular action or actions legal or not, wise or stupid, or anything else.

About the only thing such a report can tell us at all is what conclusions someone might jump to on first impression. And that really isn't all that usefull either.

EDIT: And while I was writing my long esposition, smieg covered the whole thing in just a few words. Brevity is the soul of wit.
Last edited by GWC on Wed Mar 16, 2011 11:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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I am not a lawyer. Nothing I say or write is legal advice.
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