What would you do

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What would you do

Postby Bobgun » Mon Nov 13, 2017 7:19 pm

Just for some background.
I live in PA about 7 miles from Weirton WV and 12 miles from Steubenville Oh. I have a PA LTCF and permits from Utah and Arizona. I was in Weirton in a school zone where I slowed down to 15 MPH because of the school. The woman behind me did not slow down and she rear ended me. There was a Weirton police officer right across the street. I was carrying. He came over and we got everything worked out. I did not inform him I was carrying because I was in a Federal GFZ and did not have a WV permit.

This brings up two questions first would any of you notified. The second and most confusing is if I had been in Ohio what would I do. If I informed I would be guilty of being in a Federal school zone without a permit from Ohio, but if I did not inform I could be arrested for not informing. It seems to me that if caught not informing my defense could be the 5th amendment.
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Re: What would you do

Postby Sevens » Mon Nov 13, 2017 10:00 pm

No clue at all but hoping to learn from the replies you get and thank you for asking the question!
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Re: What would you do

Postby sodbuster95 » Mon Nov 13, 2017 10:09 pm

As of May 2016, W. Virginia no longer requires a permit to carry concealed so long as you are lawfully allowed to possess a firearm. As a result, the school zone exclusion likely would not have been an issue to a local cop responding to a traffic accident. But...there's certainly no guarantee.

Of course, W. Virginia does not offer a non-resident permit, so you're a bit stuck in this scenario. I guess the only "correct" answer would be to avoid school zones when you're out-of-state. Having said that, such an endeavor is virtually impossible and I'm confident I've unknowingly violated it on countless occasions when out-of-state.
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Re: What would you do

Postby schmieg » Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:39 pm

While there are no guarantees of anything except death and taxes, local officers are very unlikely to enforce the federal school zone laws. If there are state laws, that would be another matter. As a general rule, the federal school zone law is enforced as an add-on when you are committing another offense, generally something serious, in the protected area.

As a practical matter, you can't drive through any city without violating that 1000' circle and it's pretty difficult to avoid violating it in any town that has a school. In my little burg of Madeira, Ohio, pop. @ 10,000, we have four schools and you will be in the 1000' circle on any of the main drags through town, even if you don't see the schools because two are on side streets. In fact, you can violate the rule without even getting into town by driving on the roads around the town. It's a no win situation and a good thing that it's not enforced.
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Re: What would you do

Postby willbird » Tue Nov 14, 2017 12:05 pm

IMHO the gun free zone thing does NOT apply to driving down a highway,road, or street that is a public thoroughfare, and as far as I know it does not apply to walking down the sidewalk even past a school.

Ohio law allows one to be armed while picking up and dropping off children at a school as long as you stay in the vehicle.

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Re: What would you do

Postby JustaShooter » Tue Nov 14, 2017 1:28 pm

willbird wrote:IMHO the gun free zone thing does NOT apply to driving down a highway,road, or street that is a public thoroughfare, and as far as I know it does not apply to walking down the sidewalk even past a school.


I'm afraid it does. There is no exception to the Federal GFSZA for roads, highways, public thoroughfares, sidewalks, or any other public property.

The Federal GFSZA [18 U.S.C. § 922(q)(2)(A)] does not apply to the possession of a firearm—

(i) on private property not part of school grounds;

(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;

(iii) that is—
(I) not loaded; and
(II) in a locked container, or a locked firearms rack that is on a motor vehicle;

(iv) by an individual for use in a program approved by a school in the school zone;

(v) by an individual in accordance with a contract entered into between a school in the school zone and the individual or an employer of the individual;

(vi) by a law enforcement officer acting in his or her official capacity; or

(vii) that is unloaded and is possessed by an individual while traversing school premises for the purpose of gaining access to public or private lands open to hunting, if the entry on school premises is authorized by school authorities.


willbird wrote:Ohio law allows one to be armed while picking up and dropping off children at a school as long as you stay in the vehicle.


That only applies if you have a CHL or license from another state that is recognized by Ohio. In the case of an Ohio CHL, that is also an exception to the Federal GFSZA since it is a license issued by the state in which the school is located, see point (ii) above. Also, Ohio law has changed, you can now leave your firearm locked in the vehicle and exit the vehicle, and can be on school property for any reason not just dropping off or picking up a child. See ORC 2923.122 http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2923.122

(4) This section does not apply to a person who conveys or attempts to convey a handgun into, or possesses a handgun in, a school safety zone if at the time of that conveyance, attempted conveyance, or possession of the handgun all of the following apply:

(a) The person is carrying a valid concealed handgun license or the person is an active duty member of the armed forces of the United States and is carrying a valid military identification card and documentation of successful completion of firearms training that meets or exceeds the training requirements described in division (G)(1) of section 2923.125 of the Revised Code.

(b) The person leaves the handgun in a motor vehicle .

(c) The handgun does not leave the motor vehicle.

(d) If the person exits the motor vehicle, the person locks the motor vehicle.
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Re: What would you do

Postby Bobgun » Tue Nov 14, 2017 1:40 pm

So as an out of state carrier. If I was stopped by a LEO in front of a school I would have no recourse but to either self incriminate myself, on the Federal charge, by notifying the officer or risk not notifying and risk that.
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Re: What would you do

Postby Brian D. » Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:38 pm

Bobgun, schmieg is a retired, well regarded criminal defense attorney from here in SW Ohio. As he stated, unless it was one charge among several, the local police would be VERY unlikely to bring the federal GFSZ law into play. In my thirteen years on this forum, I don't recall any first hand accounts of it happening. Naturally, we have spent much time kicking it around as a "What if..?" hypothetical, but you should probably find something better to lose sleep over. :)
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Re: What would you do

Postby tracker 6 » Tue Nov 14, 2017 4:47 pm

Do you need to notify in WV ? :)
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Re: What would you do

Postby schmieg » Tue Nov 14, 2017 5:09 pm

tracker 6 wrote:Do you need to notify in WV ? :)

No.
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Re: What would you do

Postby Bobgun » Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:24 pm

Brian D. wrote:Bobgun, schmieg is a retired, well regarded criminal defense attorney from here in SW Ohio. As he stated, unless it was one charge among several, the local police would be VERY unlikely to bring the federal GFSZ law into play. In my thirteen years on this forum, I don't recall any first hand accounts of it happening. Naturally, we have spent much time kicking it around as a "What if..?" hypothetical, but you should probably find something better to lose sleep over. :)


This whole question was brought to my mind by what happened in WV. I was just wondering which way it would be best to go if this had happened in Ohio. I guess what schmieg is saying is I should probably notify and not worry about the Feds. I also understand none of this is legal advise and anything I would do in this case is on me.
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Re: What would you do

Postby willbird » Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:04 am

The only instances I have seen the federal law applied to were in so called "section 8" housing that was within those zones.

And only a very few "stack on" charges then too.


Individuals traveling on public sidewalks, roads, and highways within 1000 feet of defined schools are subject to the law's legal restrictions.[4][6][7] The First Circuit Court of Appeals sustained a GFSZA conviction in the 2007 case of United States v Nieves-Castaño for a firearm kept in a woman's apartment, which was part of a public housing project within 1000 feet of a school



Interesting twist here though....

It is a violation of federal law for an off-duty LEOSA-qualified sworn officer to carry a gun within a school zone, which is defined in §921(a)(25) as “in, or on the grounds of, a public, parochial or private school” or “within a distance of 1,000 feet from the grounds of a public, parochial or private school.”


http://www.bluesheepdog.com/leosa-school-grounds/


Also in states where no license or permit is required to carry, so called Constitutional Carry no "citizen" can enter a school safety zone armed.
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Re: What would you do

Postby rimfireOH » Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:57 am

So, because of 2923.122, it's a felony to drive past the school with my unloaded, cased long gun in my locked trunk on the way to the range. Do I have that right?
And 2923.122 grants me an exception on school property as a CHL-holder, so that same situation (unloaded, cased long gun in my locked trunk) is also against the law. Did I read it correctly?
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Re: What would you do

Postby willbird » Wed Nov 15, 2017 12:27 pm

rimfireOH wrote:So, because of 2923.122, it's a felony to drive past the school with my unloaded, cased long gun in my locked trunk on the way to the range. Do I have that right?
And 2923.122 grants me an exception on school property as a CHL-holder, so that same situation (unloaded, cased long gun in my locked trunk) is also against the law. Did I read it correctly?


IMHO you read it exactly right. I am a bit embarrassed to say that when I was more active RKBA wise I seem to remember knowing this and pointing it out quite often :-).

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Re: What would you do

Postby JustaShooter » Wed Nov 15, 2017 12:50 pm

rimfireOH wrote:So, because of 2923.122, it's a felony to drive past the school with my unloaded, cased long gun in my locked trunk on the way to the range. Do I have that right?


No. The Ohio "School Safety Zone" ends at the school's property line so you are not violating state law by driving past the school with an unloaded, cased long gun in your locked trunk on the way to the range.

rimfireOH wrote:And 2923.122 grants me an exception on school property as a CHL-holder, so that same situation (unloaded, cased long gun in my locked trunk) is also against the law. Did I read it correctly?


Since the CHL exceptions to 2323.122 only apply to handguns, yes, if you transport an unloaded, cased long gun in your locked trunk onto school property, it is against the law.
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