Possible self defense shooting in Florida Army Navy store

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M-Quigley
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Possible self defense shooting in Florida Army Navy store

Post by M-Quigley »

https://www.whio.com/news/national/vide ... v5ZfdSpcN/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
LAKELAND, Fla. — Video released in the fatal shooting of an alleged shoplifter at a Florida military surplus store shows Lakeland city Commissioner Michael Dunn fire the shot that killed the man.

Dunn, a vocal supporter of gun rights, is a co-owner of Vets Army Navy Surplus, located at 819 N. Florida Ave. in Lakeland. According to the Tampa Bay Times, Dunn was not arrested following the Oct. 3 shooting, which police officials have labeled a “death-justifiable homicide investigation.”
Surveillance video released Monday by police officials shows Dunn, 47, confronting Christobal Lopez, 50, of Wauchula, about a $16 hatchet Dunn said he saw Lopez conceal and try to leave with. Dunn holds a handgun in his right hand and, as both men move into the camera frame, he pushes Lopez with his left.

As Lopez moves toward the door, Dunn tries to grab Lopez’s shoulder, but instead ends up with a fistful of the man’s shirt. Lopez raises his left arm, trying to break free.

Dunn then appears to fire at least one bullet into Lopez’s body. The alleged shoplifter falls to the ground just outside the door. An object which appears to be the hatchet is still in his right hand.

The mortally wounded man moves for a few seconds, seemingly trying to get up. Lopez then goes still, as Dunn keeps his gun trained on him.

The video continues for another three minutes, during which Dunn is seen moving in and out of the frame, the Times reported. No one tries to see if Lopez, who is face-down on the sidewalk, is alive or render first aid.
Regarding the last sentence, the hatchet might still have been in his hand. IDK because I was unable to view the video on my computer.
Dunn’s attorney, Rusty Franklin, told reporters following the shooting that his client was justified because Lopez had a hatchet in hand during their scuffle, the Times reported.

Tim Hessinger, a Tampa defense attorney and former state prosecutor, told the Times after viewing the video, however, that it does not appear to show Dunn in fear for his life when he fires at Lopez, who was struggling to get away.

“This is a very difficult case to defend,” Hessinger told the newspaper.

Lopez’s family is trying to make sense of why he was killed. His obituary stated that Lopez, who lived most of his life in Hardee County, worked as an agricultural laborer.

His sister, Veronica Lopez, told the Times following the shooting that her brother, who had a non-violent criminal history that included drug and shoplifting charges, did not deserve his fate.

“He was not a violent person,” Veronica Lopez said. “My brother didn’t need to be killed like some animal.”
Except that he was stealing an ax for some reason. Do agricultural workers in Tampa have to provide their own axes for their jobs?
Dunn in July held a rally at his store to counter a March for our Lives rally held nearby, according to the Times. The March for our Lives movement was formed by students at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School, where 17 students and faculty were gunned down on Valentine’s Day.
Surviving students have become prominent activists for better gun control.
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pirateguy191
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Re: Possible self defense shooting in Florida Army Navy stor

Post by pirateguy191 »

Self defense???? Nah.....
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catfish86
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Re: Possible self defense shooting in Florida Army Navy stor

Post by catfish86 »

https://www.foxnews.com/us/florida-city ... ideo-shows

You may have better luck with this Fox News article. The video is part of the report but stops just prior to the shooting. There is an unidentifiable object in Lopez hand but with it stopping prior to the shot, it is hard telling if Lopez continued to try to get away or turned with hatchet in hand.

As it appears, Lopez was attempting to leave and IF IF IF this continued, the shooter will have a hard time claiming self defense.

My thinking is this is a training failure in 2 respects:

1) gun drawn, attempting to physically restrain the subject. This is asking for a wrestling match for the gun. Any self-defense training would tell you this is beyond a bad idea, it is flat out stupid.

2) Mindset...it appears that he shot the guy more out of frustration with him not complying with his orders than actual fear. Few states allow deadly force to stop property crimes. Now that being said, if in the act of using less than deadly force to stop a property crime, if the perp attacks said person than it is self-defense. Correct me if I am wrong. It is OK to order the guy to stop with gun drawn, BUT think through if the guy DOES NOT. If the guy charges you, shoot. If the guy flees, call him a dirty rat, a hobgoblin and call the police to file a report.

Now on Lopez's part, he most likely assumed the guy would not shoot a fleeing thief. The shooter may well end up in prison for shooting him but Lopez is now dead and no judge, no matter how delusional about his authority, can make him alive again.
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Bruenor
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Re: Possible self defense shooting in Florida Army Navy stor

Post by Bruenor »

Just before he pulled the trigger the shopkeeper pulled on Lopez left arm causing his body to rotate towards the shopkeeper, but I didn't see the hatchet move towards the shop keeper it was in the right hand that was pushing the door open. Apparently in his statement the shopkeeper said Lopez raised the hatchet overhead to strike, then he pulled the trigger. I did not see that in the video. He tugged then shot, and Lopez dropped.

Would have been cheaper for him to install a mantrap to prevent theft than what this is going to cost him.

It's going to be a very tough sell as a SD shooting.
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Re: Possible self defense shooting in Florida Army Navy stor

Post by DontTreadOnMe »

M-Quigley wrote:https://www.whio.com/news/national/vide ... v5ZfdSpcN/
LAKELAND, Fla. — Video released in the fatal shooting of an alleged shoplifter at a Florida military surplus store shows Lakeland city Commissioner Michael Dunn fire the shot that killed the man.
I was talking about this today and realized I'd heard this name before. "Wasn't there another Dunn involved in a high profile shooting?" In fact, it was another Michael Dunn from Florida:

"Loud music" shooter Michael Dunn gets life in prison

That's a weird coincidence.
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Re: Possible self defense shooting in Florida Army Navy stor

Post by M-Quigley »

UPDATE:

https://www.foxnews.com/us/florida-city ... m-rejected" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
A Florida elected official who claimed he was defending himself under the state's “Stand Your Ground” law has been charged with murder in the fatal shooting of a shoplifter stealing a hatchet that was caught on video.

Lakeland City Commissioner Michael Dunn, 47, was arrested Friday after a grand jury returned an indictment charging him with second-degree murder.

Prosecutors rejected his self-defense claim.
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Re: Possible self defense shooting in Florida Army Navy stor

Post by catfish86 »

I would tend to believe Mr. Dunn will be convicted. While it is frustrating to have someone steal from you, instead of losing a 10-15 dollar hatchet, Mr. Dunn has forfeited a significant portion of his life. Do I have a lot of sympathy for Lopez, not really. As I said earlier, it was against the law for him to be killed, but his own actions put him in that situation. Nobody wins.
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and the Wisdom to know the difference.

Carrying a gun is a right, not a crime.

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Re: Possible self defense shooting in Florida Army Navy stor

Post by bignflnut »

The video in this link shows the shooting and the aftermath...not much before the shooting...not a full picture...

Looks to me as though the shopkeeper is impeding the exit of the thief, initiates contact and reacts when the thief attempts to break free/flee.

Unfortunately, footage that would cause the shopkeeper to be reasonably fearful hasn't yet surfaced.
With this amount of evidence, it seems the shopkeeper would be up a creek. The current video evidence isn't in his favor.

This is one of those cases where a common citizen attempts to make a citizens arrest or stop a crime in progress. He will be legally skewered for his actions. Had he a blue shirt and badge, he would be called #Hero.

The whole point of government is that citizens cannot empower the government to do something outside of the citizen's powers (according to American Philosophy).
Government Cannot Delegate Any Power to Violate Man's Rights

5. By the same token, it is impossible for the people's tool, government, to possess any authority from the people--any "just power" (to use the term of the Declaration of Independence)--to delegate to others any power which it does not and could not possess under the traditional American philosophy. As such a tool, government could not possibly possess, could not be given, any power to authorize any person, group or organization to do that which it is itself powerless to do. This precludes, for example, government's authorizing or empowering any person, group, or organization to violate any Individual's unalienable rights--including the right to "Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness"--or any of the supporting rights, such as the right to property and to freedom of association.
Therefore, if we accept that blue clad government officials can legally act as the shopkeeper did (citing a "just power" given to him by the citizenry, which then the citizenry must have previously posessed), we must accept that common citizens can blast away when commands are not instantly obeyed. That would be consistent, but the current American Justice System insists on the contrary.

If justice is truly blind, the lack of a uniform and badge shouldn't convict this shopkeeper.
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Re: Possible self defense shooting in Florida Army Navy stor

Post by catfish86 »

The thief may have been "armed" with a hatchet, but having a gun doesn't mean it is OK to shoot a guy. It is what they are doing with the weapon that matters. Otherwise, any person that became aware that I was carrying a firearm may feel afraid and shoot me. The key is a "reasonable" fear. This guy was fleeing. As I stated, call him a hobgoblin and call the police to fill out a report. Now the guy is looking at destroying his entire life. Not concerned too much about the thief.
God,
Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
the courage to change the things I can
and the Wisdom to know the difference.

Carrying a gun is a right, not a crime.

Gun control is racist.
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