Family of slain man sues Cabela’s for selling gun to killer

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catfish86
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Re: Family of slain man sues Cabela’s for selling gun to kil

Post by catfish86 »

I am going to bet that Cabella's will start doing background checks on them anyway in the future. Even if it goes to reckless I can definitely see the right jury buying the argument that not doing a background check on someone you don't personally know was reckless.
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Re: Family of slain man sues Cabela’s for selling gun to kil

Post by JustaShooter »

catfish86 wrote:I am going to bet that Cabella's will start doing background checks on them anyway in the future.
How? The NICS interface provided to FFLs is for firearms as defined by Federal law. I suspect they will not look favorably on an FFL (mis) using it for non-firearm inquiries.
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Re: Family of slain man sues Cabela’s for selling gun to kil

Post by Mustang380gal »

catfish86 wrote:I am going to bet that Cabella's will start doing background checks on them anyway in the future. Even if it goes to reckless I can definitely see the right jury buying the argument that not doing a background check on someone you don't personally know was reckless.
If I remember right, the guy called and had it shipped to his house. How would they do a background check for something one can have shipped to one's door?
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Re: Family of slain man sues Cabela’s for selling gun to kil

Post by High Power »

Mustang380gal wrote:
catfish86 wrote:I am going to bet that Cabella's will start doing background checks on them anyway in the future. Even if it goes to reckless I can definitely see the right jury buying the argument that not doing a background check on someone you don't personally know was reckless.
If I remember right, the guy called and had it shipped to his house. How would they do a background check for something one can have shipped to one's door?
I was going to tell you to go to the links that I provided in an earlier message but I see that they are not working.

You have to go here then type in Cabela's (remember the apostrophe) to view the case and the documents: http://courtsweb.waynecourts.org/public ... spx/Search

There is a long list of cases after you enter Cabela's in the search field. They are the last two on the next page which are open. Click on one of them and select "view case." Then look at the complaint.

Here are some excerpts from the complaint:
12. In or around November or December 2014, Claren called a Cabela's store. Upon information and belief, the Cabela's store was located in Ohio. Claren asked to speak with the person in charge of the gun department. Claren spoke with a Cabela's employee or store manager. Upon information and belief, the Cabela's employee knew or should have known that Claren had a felony conviction on his record.

13. Upon information and belief, the Cabela's employee did not inquire further into Claren's criminal record and did not make any effort to check his criminal record.

14. Upon information and belief, the Cabela's employee then nevertheless advised Claren that Cabela's would sell him black powder firearms.
I 9. Claren had every right to assume that Cabela's would tell him the accurate truth about whether he could buy a black powder gun.
23. Cabela's either advised Claren that it was legal for him to buy, and Cabela's to sell him, a black powder firearm, even though it was illegal; and/or Cabela's advised Claren that it was illegal, but that Cabela's was willing to violate the law; and/or Cabela's simply informed Claren that it would sell him the gun without informing him about the law. 24. Upon information and belief, Claren truthfully answered all questions asked of him by Cabela's.

25. At this point, Cabela's knew or should have known that Claren had a felony conviction on his record, and that Ohio law prohibited him from purchasing any firearm.

26. Nonetheless, on or about December 12, 2014, Cabela's sold Claren an 1858 Army .44 caliber black powder revolver, serial number R458522 (the "Black Powder Revolver") over the telephone, in knowing violation of Ohio Revised Code§ 2923.20.
The complaint is not very clear about what was said between the Claren and the employee taking the call. If at any point during the conversation, Claren revealed that he was a convicted Felon then Cabela's is in violation of the ORC. We don't know if Claren was asked if he was a Felon or if he volunteered that he was a Felon.
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Re: Family of slain man sues Cabela’s for selling gun to kil

Post by BEAR! »

High Power wrote:
Mustang380gal wrote:
catfish86 wrote:I am going to bet that Cabella's will start doing background checks on them anyway in the future. Even if it goes to reckless I can definitely see the right jury buying the argument that not doing a background check on someone you don't personally know was reckless.
If I remember right, the guy called and had it shipped to his house. How would they do a background check for something one can have shipped to one's door?
I was going to tell you to go to the links that I provided in an earlier message but I see that they are not working.

You have to go here then type in Cabela's (remember the apostrophe) to view the case and the documents: http://courtsweb.waynecourts.org/public ... spx/Search

There is a long list of cases after you enter Cabela's in the search field. They are the last two on the next page which are open. Click on one of them and select "view case." Then look at the complaint.

Here are some excerpts from the complaint:
12. In or around November or December 2014, Claren called a Cabela's store. Upon information and belief, the Cabela's store was located in Ohio. Claren asked to speak with the person in charge of the gun department. Claren spoke with a Cabela's employee or store manager. Upon information and belief, the Cabela's employee knew or should have known that Claren had a felony conviction on his record.

13. Upon information and belief, the Cabela's employee did not inquire further into Claren's criminal record and did not make any effort to check his criminal record.

14. Upon information and belief, the Cabela's employee then nevertheless advised Claren that Cabela's would sell him black powder firearms.
I 9. Claren had every right to assume that Cabela's would tell him the accurate truth about whether he could buy a black powder gun.
23. Cabela's either advised Claren that it was legal for him to buy, and Cabela's to sell him, a black powder firearm, even though it was illegal; and/or Cabela's advised Claren that it was illegal, but that Cabela's was willing to violate the law; and/or Cabela's simply informed Claren that it would sell him the gun without informing him about the law. 24. Upon information and belief, Claren truthfully answered all questions asked of him by Cabela's.

25. At this point, Cabela's knew or should have known that Claren had a felony conviction on his record, and that Ohio law prohibited him from purchasing any firearm.

26. Nonetheless, on or about December 12, 2014, Cabela's sold Claren an 1858 Army .44 caliber black powder revolver, serial number R458522 (the "Black Powder Revolver") over the telephone, in knowing violation of Ohio Revised Code§ 2923.20.
The complaint is not very clear about what was said between the Claren and the employee taking the call. If at any point during the conversation, Claren revealed that he was a convicted Felon then Cabela's is in violation of the ORC. We don't know if Claren was asked if he was a Felon or if he volunteered that he was a Felon.
So who gave all this testimony about Claren talking to a Cabela's employee? Was it just Claren or do they have the employee testimony as well?
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Re: Family of slain man sues Cabela’s for selling gun to kil

Post by High Power »

BEAR! wrote:So who gave all this testimony about Claren talking to a Cabela's employee? Was it just Claren or do they have the employee testimony as well?
I don't know. I'm just going by what the complaint said. The last time that I checked; Cabela's has not answered the complaint. I think they either have two weeks or thirty days to answer the complaint.

Anyway, even if they deny everything that's written in the complaint it will still have to be brought out in court.

If Claren told the police or it was brought out in testimony at his murder trial that could be used against Cabela's.

So if Claren admits that he told Cabela's that he was a felon and it is denied, it boils down to who a Jury would believe. Would they take the word of a felon and a murderer over Cabela's?

The bigger question here is; should firearm seller be required to conduct background investigations for blackpowder firearms and to do it through NICS? I can foresee problems with NICS because of the blackpowder issue.

An 18-year-old is not prohibited from owning a blackpowder handgun. Yet, I can see NICS denying the purchase.

In the alternative, Cabela's may require the buyer to go to the local Sheriff's office, ask them to conduct a BCI check and mail the results to Cabela's. And you think a 3 day wait is bad!

If it is established in Court that Claren was neither asked nor volunteered that he was a felon, and if I were the Defense, then I would argue the law and do as much as I could to paint the Plaintiff's complaint in a bad light. That bad light would be that they are expecting Cabela's to be clairvoyant.

There is no way that a seller could expect anyone to use an antique or modern firearm in the commission of a crime anymore than a hardware store could anticipate similar mischief with a hammer, axe or knife.
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Re: Family of slain man sues Cabela’s for selling gun to kil

Post by docachna »

High Power wrote:
BEAR! wrote:So who gave all this testimony about Claren talking to a Cabela's employee? Was it just Claren or do they have the employee testimony as well?
I don't know. I'm just going by what the complaint said.
Believe me - the allegations made by a Plaintiff('s lawyer) in the Complaint are the LAST thing you should go by. :roll: :roll: :roll:
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Re: Family of slain man sues Cabela’s for selling gun to kil

Post by High Power »

docachna wrote:
High Power wrote:
BEAR! wrote:So who gave all this testimony about Claren talking to a Cabela's employee? Was it just Claren or do they have the employee testimony as well?
I don't know. I'm just going by what the complaint said.
Believe me - the allegations made by a Plaintiff('s lawyer) in the Complaint are the LAST thing you should go by. :roll: :roll: :roll:
That's very true. If we were to take the complaint at face value then we might conclude that there is something there. However, anyone can say anything they want to in a complaint.

If they can't back it up, some judges won't be very happy about it and they could face a summary dismissal.

After answering the complaint, I'd like to be a fly on the wall during the discovery phase. Then again, transforming into a fly may not be necessary as the parties may file some of the discovery documents with the court. So they may be available online.

If the Plaintiffs can't prove that Claren disclosed he was a felon then they need to prove to the jury that Cabela's should have conducted a background check.

There are only two ways they can appeal to the Jury on the background check. That's on a matter of law and on an emotional level. So expect them to drag out the murder victim's baby pictures, high-school photos and bring his grandmother in to testify.
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Re: Family of slain man sues Cabela’s for selling gun to kil

Post by WY_Not »

Here's hoping Cabela's recorded the call "for training purposes", did every thing by the book including asking the POS if he was a prohibited person and that he lied and said "no", then turns around and slaps the plaintiff with a countersuit/bill for legal fees. :evil:
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Re: Family of slain man sues Cabela’s for selling gun to kil

Post by High Power »

Cabela's has not filed a pleading to answer the complaint yet. Because of the name changes and mergers they filed a notice of stipulated dismissal and for the plaintiffs to submit an amended complaint. They want the amended complaint to name the Defendant as "Cabela's Wholesale, LLC.," instead of "Cabela's Wholesale, Inc."

Here is a link to the notice of stipulated dismissal:

http://courtsweb.waynecourts.org/public ... Eh4Lmge3hQ
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Re: Family of slain man sues Cabela’s for selling gun to kil

Post by High Power »

I checked the Court's docket this morning. The Jury trial is set for 2/18/2020.
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Re: Family of slain man sues Cabela’s for selling gun to kil

Post by DontTreadOnMe »

Cabela's and Claren both filed responses to the complaint. Cabela's responses boil down to denials of everything except the statements of fact. Claren's are more significant. He does not admit that he made any statement to the store about having a felony charge or any knowledge that they knew he did, but his statement does agree that he was told it was legal for him to purchase the firearm.
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Re: Family of slain man sues Cabela’s for selling gun to kil

Post by docachna »

Came across this thread today.

Any update on discovery ? I can't access the court's file.
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Re: Family of slain man sues Cabela’s for selling gun to kil

Post by High Power »

docachna wrote:Came across this thread today.

Any update on discovery ? I can't access the court's file.
Try going to the home page of the Court's web site.

Anyway, a Jury trial is set for 2/18/2020.
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Re: Family of slain man sues Cabela’s for selling gun to kil

Post by docachna »

Still unable to bring up this case.

Was it continued?
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