Effect of provocation under Stand Your Ground

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catfish86
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Effect of provocation under Stand Your Ground

Post by catfish86 »

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/07/22/fl ... spute.html

Is this an activist sheriff trying to create a "bad case" to get the law overturned. This guy is apparently a pest about handicap parking, yelling at people and threatening to shoot them. He was yelling at a woman and her boyfriend came out and pushed him to the ground. The pest then shot the guy. Sheriff claims stand your ground prevents the arrest.

Doesn't provoking the situation put you in jail?
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Re: Effect of provocation under Stand Your Ground

Post by Javelin Man »

GMA just had this story and made the law the bad thing, not the hot-headed "sheriff" who clearly shot a man walking away from him. And of course, the obligatory segue to Zimmerman and a picture of an innocent 10 year old Trayvon. :roll:
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Re: Effect of provocation under Stand Your Ground

Post by bignflnut »

Based on the video footage of this confrontation, I expect a reasonable argument could be made that Drejka’s initial presentation of his handgun was lawful–he’d just been shoved hard to the ground without warning, put in a physical position from which unarmed self-defense would be extremely difficult especially against an attacker nearly half his age who still loomed angrily over him. It’s not hard to see how Drejka could have reasonably formed a reasonable perception of imminent serious bodily injury, which would warrant deadly defensive force.

As often happens when a gun is presented in self-defense, however, here the initial aggressor (McGlockton) decided that he’d goofed in bringing his fists to a gun fight, and he immediately began moving backwards, distancing himself from Drejka. This ought to have been apparent to McGlockton during the two second pause between his pointing the gun and shooting. Had McGlockton maintained his position, and particularly if he had made any movement apparently consistent with continuing to attack Drejka, the fired shot may well have been warranted.

Given that McGlockton was backing up, however, this strikes me as a scenario that plenty of prosecutors would be happy to present to a jury, and argue that the fired shot was not lawful, and which I expect in this instance plenty of police officers would determine at least created probably cause to believe that the shot was not lawful.

Of course, there may well be facts not known to us that could have shaped the Sheriff’s conclusion to not arrest. That, of course, is not the end of this matter, either criminally or civilly. The evidence is being presented to local prosecutors, who will decide whether to take the matter to trial, and the girlfriend of McGlockton, with whom she had three children, has already announced her intention to seek civil compensation for the killing of her children’s father (even throwing out the legal term-of-art “wrongful death”).
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Re: Effect of provocation under Stand Your Ground

Post by catfish86 »

https://www.yahoo.com/gma/victims-girlf ... ories.html

This from the article primarily with the girlfriend as the source. The shooter was yelling at her enough to create fear in her and prompt another person to inform the clerk that some guy was harassing a woman in the parking lot. This guy was not shoved to the ground unprovoked and without warning. I disagree heartily with that and would like to see the video from the car pulling up through the shooting. But yes, the man who was killed was retreating when he was shot.

"Jacobs, who was waiting in the vehicle with the couple’s two younger children -- an infant and a 3-year-old -- said she started feeling “scared” when she noticed how fast the argument was escalating. It wasn’t long before McGlockton came out along with their 5-year-old son and tried to diffuse the situation.

Surveillance video from the Circle A Food Store in Clearwater, about 30 minutes east of Tampa, showed McGlockton leaving the store and shoving Drejka hard to the ground.

“By this time a witness pulls up and everybody hears us going back and forth with one another. ... A witness goes in the store and he let the owner know that there was somebody out there messing with a woman in a car,” she said. “My man hears what’s going on, sees the guy yelling at me and I’m sitting in the car. My man is defending me and his children, so he pushes him down."

Stand your ground still doesn't change the law of self-defense other than the duty to retreat. You still don't get to initiate a confrontation then claim you are in fear for your life. If that is true then I don't support that law.

Anybody know about this sheriff and his leanings?
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Re: Effect of provocation under Stand Your Ground

Post by Javelin Man »

The man yelling at the woman had been asked to leave multiple times by the owner because he harassed many others before this.

The woman was scared? Is that why she got out of the car? Keep your window up and lock your door!

The husband didn't run up to the confrontation, I give him great kudos for that. I would've been sprinting.

The sheriff also knows that he doesn't have to arrest the man, local prosecutors can do that for him.
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Re: Effect of provocation under Stand Your Ground

Post by qmti »

Unfortunately, guess who will use this event/confrontation as another reason to veto Ohio's SYG legislative bill???
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Re: Effect of provocation under Stand Your Ground

Post by Brian D. »

Javelin Man wrote:The man yelling at the woman had been asked to leave multiple times by the owner because he harassed many others before this.
You've studied this deeper than I. Always wonder why more business owners don't have persistently obnoxious, menacing, etc. folks trespassed off their property. Eventually, the troublemakers will see some time in the Graybar Hotel if they keep coming back.
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Re: Effect of provocation under Stand Your Ground

Post by BEAR! »

Yeah the owner shouldn’t let the guy hang around and harass patrons but he also shouldn’t let people park in the handicapped spot.

I have a handicapped plate but don’t say anything to the deadbeats that park illegally although I wish the law was enforced.

As to shooting someone after they have knocked you down, I have played that out mentally countless times because anyone could push me down and proceed to stomp my brains out. I’d have to watch the video again but the dead guy didn’t seem to back up until he saw the gun. What would I have done? I don’t know but I pray that I never get put in that position.

Should I practice shooting from the ground ?
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Re: Effect of provocation under Stand Your Ground

Post by bignflnut »

BEAR! wrote:Should I practice shooting from the ground ?
My first IDPA match, they had us kneel on a square of carpet behind a barrel, lean out from cover and shoot a moving target. Been hooked on IDPA ever since.

Target practice from your knees, from your back (forward and behind you), from your stomach, on your side (strong and weak)...have a great time!
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Re: Effect of provocation under Stand Your Ground

Post by High Power »

bignflnut wrote:
BEAR! wrote:Should I practice shooting from the ground ?
My first IDPA match, they had us kneel on a square of carpet behind a barrel, lean out from cover and shoot a moving target. Been hooked on IDPA ever since.

Target practice from your knees, from your back (forward and behind you), from your stomach, on your side (strong and weak)...have a great time!
Do you mean like this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Cg40zvIPeU
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Re: Effect of provocation under Stand Your Ground

Post by steves 50de »

IMO after the assault of being knock down,... that in of itself could of caused a fatal injury to the victim. I can't say i would of capped him that fast. I would demand he back up, at the same time try and get back on my feet and back myself up as well. Try and give him every opportunity not to get shot.
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Re: Effect of provocation under Stand Your Ground

Post by Javelin Man »

The video shows the man shoving the gunman down and stopping at that, then started to back up. I would've continued to be on the guy pinning him to the ground but that's just me. The guy started to back up then even faster once the gun was reached and pulled out. I pointed out to my wife that the guy was shot and was able to walk into the store, hence why one continues to shoot until the threat is over because even though a guy is fatally shot, he can still inflict a lot of damage.
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3. You Were An Accident
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Re: Effect of provocation under Stand Your Ground

Post by M-Quigley »

Javelin Man wrote:The man yelling at the woman had been asked to leave multiple times by the owner because he harassed many others before this.

I'm surprised the store allowed several opportunities. Every place I've ever worked at, if someone was asked more than once, the PD was called and a trespass warning was issued, along with a written notice to never come back. If they still didn't leave on their own, they were arrested.
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Re: Effect of provocation under Stand Your Ground

Post by WhyNot »

There are more charges possible here. Doesn't the female have an opportunity to file menacing charges, or something similar, for the initial confrontation? And menacing while armed at that. Everyone gets tunnel vision once 'BANG' happens.
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Re: Effect of provocation under Stand Your Ground

Post by catfish86 »

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/07/30/re ... oting.html

I was wondering when the NRA and if any Republicans involved in passing the bill would step up and say something. This sheriff, who is a Republican BTW, is way off base in my opinion and is needlessly endangering a good law by a bad application of it.
God,
Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
the courage to change the things I can
and the Wisdom to know the difference.

Carrying a gun is a right, not a crime.

Gun control is racist.
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