Non-certified CHL instructor = 1700 CHLs in jeopardy

A place for sharing news stories related to armed citizens, law enforcement & 2A/CCW topics.

Please note that when linking to an article you must cite the source URL and provide no more than a brief preview of the article to ensure fair-use standards are met.

NO DOCUMENT DUMPING.

Posts in violation of these rules are subject to immediate deletion without warning.

Moderators: Chuck, Mustang380gal, Coordinators, Moderators

User avatar
rickt
OFCC Member
OFCC Member
Posts: 3164
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 6:35 am
Location: Cuyahoga County

Non-certified CHL instructor = 1700 CHLs in jeopardy

Post by rickt »

LAKE COUNTY, OH (WOIO) -

Close to 2,000 Northeast Ohio residents have been notified their concealed carry permits could be revoked because of serious questions over the man who may have trained them.

According to the Lake County Sheriff's Office, letters have gone out to around 1,700 people notifying them of "alleged discrepancies" that could render their CCW licenses invalid.

"They thought they were being taught by a certified NRA instructor," said Lake County Sheriff's Captain Ron Walters. "Come to find out, he's not a certified instructor at all."
http://www.cleveland19.com/story/382178 ... vestigates
sunfish valley
Posts: 85
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2015 1:29 pm
Location: south central ohio

Re: Non-certified CHL instructor = 1700 CHLs in jeopardy

Post by sunfish valley »

What the HE Double Hockie sticks is wrong with people. :x
SUNFISHVALLEYCCW
NRA MEMBER
NRA INSTRUCTOR
NRA RSO
Ohio Hunter Education Instructor
User avatar
ESAFO
Posts: 1108
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2012 10:20 pm
Location: Hubbard, Oh

Re: Non-certified CHL instructor = 1700 CHLs in jeopardy

Post by ESAFO »

WOW.......
Everyday that something like this in gereral pops up when someone thinks they won't get caught it just amazes me on how many people are just that STUPID :roll:
BOB
User avatar
AlanM
Posts: 9435
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 1:38 am
Location: Was Stow, OH now Charlottesville, VA

Re: Non-certified CHL instructor = 1700 CHLs in jeopardy

Post by AlanM »

Has there been a change in sheriffs in that county?
Or has the law changed.
In 2004, nearly any training was acceptable IF ok'd by the Sheriff. It just had to be 12 hours or more with 2 hours of range time IIRC.
When did it become mandatory that the trainer be NRA or OPATA certified?
AlanM
There are no dangerous weapons; there are only dangerous men. - RAH
Four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo - use in that order.
If you aren't part of the solution, then you obviously weren't properly dissolved.
User avatar
JustaShooter
OFCC Coordinator
OFCC Coordinator
Posts: 5800
Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2013 3:08 pm
Location: Akron/Canton Area

Re: Non-certified CHL instructor = 1700 CHLs in jeopardy

Post by JustaShooter »

AlanM wrote:Has there been a change in sheriffs in that county?
Or has the law changed.
In 2004, nearly any training was acceptable IF ok'd by the Sheriff. It just had to be 12 hours or more with 2 hours of range time IIRC.
When did it become mandatory that the trainer be NRA or OPATA certified?
Until a few years ago, the ORC specified OPATA or NRA certified teachers only. So, it looks to me like whoever wrote that was relying on an older version of the law. Since the new law took effect (2015? not sure), instructors must be certified by OPATA or any national gun rights organization - so, NRA, USCCA, 2AF, GOA, etc. can certify instructors. The coursework itself is still largely unregulated, as long as it consists of 8 total hours or more, with at least 2 hours on the range including live fire, and covers basic gun safety and has a written test, pretty much anything goes.
Christian, Husband, Father
NRA Life Member
NRA Certified Range Safety Officer
NRA Certified Pistol & Rifle Instructor

Want to become more active with OFCC and help fight for your rights? Click Here!
Brian D.
Posts: 16229
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 8:42 pm
Location: SW Ohio

Re: Non-certified CHL instructor = 1700 CHLs in jeopardy

Post by Brian D. »

I'm hearing similar rumblings about a high volume instructor down here in SW Ohio. Got my ear to the ground.
Quit worrying, hide your gun well, shut up, and CARRY that handgun!

********************************************************************************
1911 and Browning Hi Power Enthusianado.
User avatar
Bruenor
Posts: 7306
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2006 3:03 pm
Location: Geneva, OH

Re: Non-certified CHL instructor = 1700 CHLs in jeopardy

Post by Bruenor »

Interesting it's the second time they have gone after this guy Norman.. First time was in 2013 for fast tracking, doing courses shorter than the requirements. Credentials revoked but they didn't press charges.
Μολὼν λαβέ

"Arms discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property. . . Horrid mischief would ensue were the law-abiding deprived of the use of them."

- Thomas Paine

"Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem."

- Thomas Jefferson
WhyNot
OFCC Member
OFCC Member
Posts: 1221
Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2012 8:23 am
Location: NW Ohio

Re: Non-certified CHL instructor = 1700 CHLs in jeopardy

Post by WhyNot »

OUCH!! Oooo my wallet! Their wallet!

This guy was charging two hundred dollars $200 for a class :?: That's super ^^^steep!

Re: '' ''We figure 1,700 [people], even if a thousand of them are bad, at $200 a pop for class...he's stealing from all these people," said Walters. "He's purporting....'' ''
Acquisitions thus far:

-Slingshot
-Butter knife
-Soda straw and peas
-Sharpened pencil
-Newspaper roll
--water balloon (*diversionary*)

Yeah, I'm that good
User avatar
High Power
Posts: 2557
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2007 6:03 pm

Re: Non-certified CHL instructor = 1700 CHLs in jeopardy

Post by High Power »

WhyNot wrote:OUCH!! Oooo my wallet! Their wallet!

This guy was charging two hundred dollars $200 for a class :?: That's super ^^^steep!

Re: '' ''We figure 1,700 [people], even if a thousand of them are bad, at $200 a pop for class...he's stealing from all these people," said Walters. "He's purporting....'' ''
Now imagine if only half, no only one-fourth of those people bothered to take him to small claims court to get their $200 back. They could also sue to collect funds for the inconvenience and costs associated with getting their money back and getting another CHL.

Do the math 1/4 of 1,700 = 425 people @ $200 each. That comes to $85,000 that he owes for only 1/4 of the people wanting their money back. If all 1,700 people took him to court that comes to $340,000 :shock:

I'm in the wrong line of work :shock: How do I get an instructor's certification?
"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." - Albert Einstein
User avatar
JediSkipdogg
Posts: 10257
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2008 3:03 pm
Location: Batavia
Contact:

Re: Non-certified CHL instructor = 1700 CHLs in jeopardy

Post by JediSkipdogg »

High Power wrote:
WhyNot wrote:OUCH!! Oooo my wallet! Their wallet!

This guy was charging two hundred dollars $200 for a class :?: That's super ^^^steep!

Re: '' ''We figure 1,700 [people], even if a thousand of them are bad, at $200 a pop for class...he's stealing from all these people," said Walters. "He's purporting....'' ''
Now imagine if only half, no only one-fourth of those people bothered to take him to small claims court to get their $200 back. They could also sue to collect funds for the inconvenience and costs associated with getting their money back and getting another CHL.

Do the math 1/4 of 1,700 = 425 people @ $200 each. That comes to $85,000 that he owes for only 1/4 of the people wanting their money back. If all 1,700 people took him to court that comes to $340,000 :shock:

I'm in the wrong line of work :shock: How do I get an instructor's certification?
The problem is I semi-struggled to find people at $100 a class. I would say over 95% of mine were word of mouth. My advertising methods back when I was regularly teaching never really turned out.
Carrying Concealed Handguns - Signage Answers

Ohio Concealed Carry Classes in S/W Ohio
http://www.ProShootersTraining.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I am not a lawyer. My answers are based on research, knowledge, and are generally backed up with facts, the Ohio Revised Code, or the United States Code.
rimfireOH
OFCC Member
OFCC Member
Posts: 420
Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2013 9:49 am
Location: NE Ohio

Re: Non-certified CHL instructor = 1700 CHLs in jeopardy

Post by rimfireOH »

Just under five years ago, my wife and I were taking a CHL course from this fellow, his son and a third person (daughter?), the one who actually signed our certificates. (I don't recall what we paid, but I don't think it was anything near $200.) Later on, I posted about some of the bad law we received during the course and the instructor corrected the errors after I knew enough to challenge him.
Before I stopped going to Sherwin (due to the number of bullet holes in the wall behind the shooting line), I'd see him there from time to time.

Since then, I've taken a few other CHL courses (TDI I-III, one with my almost-21-yo son and another with a shooter friend) and the quality of training varied dramatically through all four, with TDI being the best (and longest and highest price, hmmm). Most of the items I took issue with were in the area of the law. I don't believe that any of them (except TDI) explained the law well enough to keep a CHL-holder out of trouble, with two of them teaching outright falsehoods and outdated law (which I've since addressed with the instructors).

The name on our certificates doesn't seem to be implicated in this mess. And that reminds me, my wife and I can early-renew next week!
rimfireOH
OFCC Member
OFCC Member
Posts: 420
Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2013 9:49 am
Location: NE Ohio

Re: Non-certified CHL instructor = 1700 CHLs in jeopardy

Post by rimfireOH »

Two letters arrived in the mail yesterday from the Lake County Sherrif's Office. At first, I thought it was confirmation of our renewals in a couple of weeks, but it was a letter probably related to this Norman fellow. As I stated above, he was present during our course (my wife and I took it together), but his name wasn't on the certificate.
I am writing to inform you that there may have been discrepancies regarding your License
to carry a concealed handgun that may render your License invalid. This office is investigating
the alleged discrepancies. You must appear in person at the Lake County Sheriffs CHL Office
within thirty (30) days of the date in this letter. The CHL Office is located at 84 North State
Street, Painesville, Ohio 44077. If you do not appear in person within thirty (30) days from the
date of this letter, we will have no alternative but to revoke your license to carry a concealed
handgun.
Luckily, our renewals are in less than two weeks at that address, so we'll address it then.

Anyone else get this letter?

Some more pressing questions: My license is still valid, correct? (At least until I'm told that it's not.) Am I running any risks by assuming that it's still valid and continuing to carry, everyday, everywhere? I'm driving to TN this weekend and my wife and I were planning on carrying on these CHLs during the trip. Is that wise?
bignflnut
Volunteer
Volunteer
Posts: 8135
Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2008 12:14 pm
Location: Under Naybob Tinfoil Bridge
Contact:

Re: Non-certified CHL instructor = 1700 CHLs in jeopardy

Post by bignflnut »

rimfireOH wrote:Some more pressing questions: My license is still valid, correct? (At least until I'm told that it's not.) Am I running any risks by assuming that it's still valid and continuing to carry, everyday, everywhere? I'm driving to TN this weekend and my wife and I were planning on carrying on these CHLs during the trip. Is that wise?
Dude, I empathize with you and 1700 other people (the size of the case may help you). Somebody took advantage of the red tape created by the Great State of Ohio to access your RKBA. No fault of yours. There are celebrations to have this great system.

I would encourage you to call up some RKBA groups and share your unique perspective.
“It’s not that we don’t have enough scoundrels to curse; it’s that we don’t have enough good men to curse them.”–G.K. Chesterton-Illustrated London News, 3-14-1908

Republicans.Hate.You. See2020.

"Avarice, ambition, revenge and licentiousness would break the strongest cords of our Constitution, as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." John Adams to Mass Militia 10-11-1798
User avatar
Bruenor
Posts: 7306
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2006 3:03 pm
Location: Geneva, OH

Re: Non-certified CHL instructor = 1700 CHLs in jeopardy

Post by Bruenor »

If the training is in question you may not be able to renew without taking the class over. I guess it all depends on how the sheriff rules on the course.
Have you taken any additional training since your Concealed Carry course ?

I would get over to the sheriffs office ASAP
Μολὼν λαβέ

"Arms discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property. . . Horrid mischief would ensue were the law-abiding deprived of the use of them."

- Thomas Paine

"Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem."

- Thomas Jefferson
BEAR!
Posts: 3548
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 1:00 am
Location: S.W. Montgomery county

Re: Non-certified CHL instructor = 1700 CHLs in jeopardy

Post by BEAR! »

Bruenor wrote:If the training is in question you may not be able to renew without taking the class over. I guess it all depends on how the sheriff rules on the course.
Have you taken any additional training since your Concealed Carry course ?

I would get over to the sheriffs office ASAP
In rimfireOH's first post he said that he took Handgun I-III at TDI.
NRA Endowment Member
OFCC Member

"Life is tough, its even tougher when you're stupid"- John Wayne

http://theoldtimeway.blogspot.com/
Post Reply