Police Kill Innocent Man / Swatting Incident

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Re: Police Kill Innocent Man / Swatting Incident

Postby catfish86 » Mon Jan 01, 2018 12:59 pm

This kind of police shooting angers me to no end. I get that police work is dangerous and the nature of the call received. However, making a move to a wasteband is not just cause to shoot. While they are required to make snap judgments, they are RESPONSIBLE for the decisions they make. As pointed out earlier, all the officers had cover and were in position for a confrontation. Of course nothing will happen to the cop. The SWATTER has a history of doing it and needs to be put in prison for life for felony murder. Commission of a felony resulting in death. If SWATTING is not a felony it should be if for no other reason than to make it murder if the target is killed.
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Re: Police Kill Innocent Man / Swatting Incident

Postby deanimator » Mon Jan 01, 2018 1:53 pm

catfish86 wrote:This kind of police shooting angers me to no end. I get that police work is dangerous and the nature of the call received. However, making a move to a wasteband is not just cause to shoot. While they are required to make snap judgments, they are RESPONSIBLE for the decisions they make.

The attempts by the LAPD and Torrance PD to slaughter Emma Hernandez, Margie Carranza and David Perdue clearly indicate otherwise.

The cops who wounded Hernandez and Carranza and injured Perdue in a vehicle ramming attack weren't held "responsible" in ANY way.

I've had quite a few death threats from neo-Nazis.

I don't have the SLIGHTEST doubt as to what would happen to ME if I were to "accidentally" shoot a cop because I was "afraid"... despite known links between LEOs and the neo-Nazi National Alliance.
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Re: Police Kill Innocent Man / Swatting Incident

Postby schmieg » Mon Jan 01, 2018 10:12 pm

catfish86 wrote:This kind of police shooting angers me to no end. I get that police work is dangerous and the nature of the call received. However, making a move to a wasteband is not just cause to shoot. While they are required to make snap judgments, they are RESPONSIBLE for the decisions they make. As pointed out earlier, all the officers had cover and were in position for a confrontation. Of course nothing will happen to the cop. The SWATTER has a history of doing it and needs to be put in prison for life for felony murder. Commission of a felony resulting in death. If SWATTING is not a felony it should be if for no other reason than to make it murder if the target is killed.

The problem is that, in most jurisdictions, swatting amounts to calling in a false report and is generally a misdemeanor, thus the felony murder doesn't apply.
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Re: Police Kill Innocent Man / Swatting Incident

Postby deanimator » Mon Jan 01, 2018 10:18 pm

schmieg wrote:The problem is that, in most jurisdictions, swatting amounts to calling in a false report and is generally a misdemeanor, thus the felony murder doesn't apply.

I'm not sure that's necessarily true.

Back in the '80s, a guy was merely IN a drug house in Chicago to buy some marijuana.

While he was there, the cops raided the house.

During the raid, one cop accidentally shot and killed another.

He took no part in any of the activities other than being present to buy drugs.

The guy was charged with, indicted for, convicted of, and sentenced to DEATH for felony murder.

It's one of the things which caused Illinois to end the death penalty.
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Re: Police Kill Innocent Man / Swatting Incident

Postby schmieg » Mon Jan 01, 2018 10:59 pm

deanimator wrote:
schmieg wrote:The problem is that, in most jurisdictions, swatting amounts to calling in a false report and is generally a misdemeanor, thus the felony murder doesn't apply.

I'm not sure that's necessarily true.

Back in the '80s, a guy was merely IN a drug house in Chicago to buy some marijuana.

While he was there, the cops raided the house.

During the raid, one cop accidentally shot and killed another.

He took no part in any of the activities other than being present to buy drugs.

The guy was charged with, indicted for, convicted of, and sentenced to DEATH for felony murder.

It's one of the things which caused Illinois to end the death penalty.

Back in the 80's, buying marijuana might have been a felony, at least if you bought enough and the prosecutor just has to convince the jury the guy was going to buy enough.
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Re: Police Kill Innocent Man / Swatting Incident

Postby deanimator » Mon Jan 01, 2018 11:36 pm

schmieg wrote:Back in the 80's, buying marijuana might have been a felony, at least if you bought enough and the prosecutor just has to convince the jury the guy was going to buy enough.

Earlier, I was looking for details of the case, but couldn't find it.

As I recall, he was buying his girlfriend some weed for her birthday(?), so I don't think it was all that much. I don't remember the prosecution saying anything to the contrary.
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Re: Police Kill Innocent Man / Swatting Incident

Postby TJW815 » Tue Jan 02, 2018 12:01 am

deanimator wrote:
schmieg wrote:Back in the 80's, buying marijuana might have been a felony, at least if you bought enough and the prosecutor just has to convince the jury the guy was going to buy enough.

Earlier, I was looking for details of the case, but couldn't find it.

As I recall, he was buying his girlfriend some weed for her birthday(?), so I don't think it was all that much. I don't remember the prosecution saying anything to the contrary.



Wow, those are some harsh sentencing guidelines. Didn’t know that Felony Murder met the standard for a capital offense. I’d love to see some info on that case. Not saying that it didn’t happen, and don’t take it personally, but it sounds like more of a myth than fact.

Edit to add: I did a little research (https://www.criminallawyer-chicago.com/blog/what-is-the-felony-murder-law-in-illinois/)and found that when the deceased was a police officer, it elevated the charge to a capital level offense.
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Re: Police Kill Innocent Man / Swatting Incident

Postby deanimator » Tue Jan 02, 2018 5:18 am

TJW815 wrote:
deanimator wrote:
schmieg wrote:Back in the 80's, buying marijuana might have been a felony, at least if you bought enough and the prosecutor just has to convince the jury the guy was going to buy enough.

Earlier, I was looking for details of the case, but couldn't find it.

As I recall, he was buying his girlfriend some weed for her birthday(?), so I don't think it was all that much. I don't remember the prosecution saying anything to the contrary.



Wow, those are some harsh sentencing guidelines. Didn’t know that Felony Murder met the standard for a capital offense. I’d love to see some info on that case. Not saying that it didn’t happen, and don’t take it personally, but it sounds like more of a myth than fact.

Edit to add: I did a little research (https://www.criminallawyer-chicago.com/blog/what-is-the-felony-murder-law-in-illinois/)and found that when the deceased was a police officer, it elevated the charge to a capital level offense.

Just remember, it's Chicago where nothing is too stupid or too cruel for "government" to do.

I'm still looking, but was inundated with a mountain of OTHER corruption scandals, some about which I knew nothing.
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Re: Police Kill Innocent Man / Swatting Incident

Postby M-Quigley » Tue Jan 02, 2018 9:37 pm

catfish86 wrote:This kind of police shooting angers me to no end. I get that police work is dangerous and the nature of the call received. However, making a move to a wasteband is not just cause to shoot.
,

Did the guy even make a move to his waist? I've been looking at the video and the blown up frames, and I can't tell one way or the other. It looks like there's some kind of movement from the guy, but it's hard for me to tell exactly what. Is anyone else backing up that story about reaching for the waist area? Any mention anywhere of what the distance was between the LEO and the guy? The video makes it look a large distance, but that is possibly not an accurate perspective.
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Re: Police Kill Innocent Man / Swatting Incident

Postby JediSkipdogg » Wed Jan 03, 2018 6:45 am

M-Quigley wrote:The video makes it look a large distance, but that is possibly not an accurate perspective.


There's also nothing saying the video they have released is from the one that made the shot. They supposedly had the house surrounded (that could be 3 officers or 10.) Therefore it's really unknown what distance and what angle the officer that fired the shot had.
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Re: Police Kill Innocent Man / Swatting Incident

Postby M-Quigley » Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:01 am

JediSkipdogg wrote:
M-Quigley wrote:The video makes it look a large distance, but that is possibly not an accurate perspective.


There's also nothing saying the video they have released is from the one that made the shot. They supposedly had the house surrounded (that could be 3 officers or 10.) Therefore it's really unknown what distance and what angle the officer that fired the shot had.


If you mean unknown as in based on what the PD has released so far, I would agree. I remain hopeful that more information will come out eventually that might clarify the situation.

As far as the issue of swatting in general, I have a concern that it will probably continue to be an issue, and perhaps even increase in the future.
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Re: Police Kill Innocent Man / Swatting Incident

Postby bignflnut » Wed Jan 03, 2018 1:27 pm

Finch’s mother, Lisa Finch, wrote a letter Tuesday to Mayor Jeff Longwell, police Chief Gordon Ramsay and other city officials saying an unannounced visit from the police chief three days after the shooting did not ease her heart and left questions unanswered.

“It goes without saying that our family is devastated by what has happened,” she wrote. “What cannot go without saying is why Wichita City leadership is compounding our grief and sorrow, by keeping my son from us? Please let me see my son’s lifeless body. I want to hold him and say goodbye. Please immediately return his body to us.”

Her letter also posed numerous questions, including asking when officials will return the front door, a computer, two cellphones, a video game and other items that were seized from the family’s home. The family also wants information on the protocol and training for officers as it relates to “swatting” calls.

Chicago civil rights attorney Andrew M. Stroth, who is representing the family, told The Associated Press in a phone interview Tuesday that what the “swatters” did was inappropriate and tragic. However, he said, the family wants Wichita and its police to be held accountable.

“Justice for the Finch family constitutes criminal charges against the shooting officer and any other liable officers as well as damages against the city of Wichita for the policies and practices of its Police Department,” Stroth said.

But criminologist B. Remy Cross at Webster University in Missouri said criminal charges are highly unlikely.
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Re: Police Kill Innocent Man / Swatting Incident

Postby TJW815 » Wed Jan 03, 2018 1:46 pm

Everyone is well aware that I typically side with the LEO initially in most cases. This is NOT on of those cases. Seems the LEO was a bit too quick on the trigger.

I don’t think I would support a murder charge, but would stand behind an indictment for manslaughter of some sort.

I think the person that called in the “swatting” should face a bunch of charges. Murder, abuse of 911, inducing panic, etc...

Deanimator, I agree with you entirely on this one...
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Re: Police Kill Innocent Man / Swatting Incident

Postby schmieg » Wed Jan 03, 2018 1:55 pm

TJW815 wrote:Everyone is well aware that I typically side with the LEO initially in most cases. This is NOT on of those cases. Seems the LEO was a bit too quick on the trigger.

I don’t think I would support a murder charge, but would stand behind an indictment for manslaughter of some sort.

I think the person that called in the “swatting” should face a bunch of charges. Murder, abuse of 911, inducing panic, etc...

Deanimator, I agree with you entirely on this one...

I, too, agree with him. The question is whether the law allows for significant charges against the swatter. It does appear that the officer jumped the gun and should face charges.

I think that legislatures should be considering making "swatting" a specific criminal offense as it goes well beyond filing a false report.
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Re: Police Kill Innocent Man / Swatting Incident

Postby djthomas » Wed Jan 03, 2018 2:22 pm

schmieg wrote:I think that legislatures should be considering making "swatting" a specific criminal offense as it goes well beyond filing a false report.

Ohio kind of has. Inducing Panic and making false reports have different degrees based on the circumstances, but unfortunately short of claiming there's a WMD involved the tiers are almost entirely financial. Now, if the SWAT team shows up and shoots someone it's likely that there is at least $150,000 in economic harm, which is the highest tier at an F3.

It would seem to me to be relatively simple to say that if the reporter conceals or attempts to conceal his or her identity and the report is intended to or is reasonably likely to generate a high risk response from law enforcement personnel then it's an F2, and if during the response any person suffers serious physical harm then it's an F1. Then classify such violations as offenses of violence so the conduct also constitutes murder if it results in someone's death by a third party (that rule only kicks in if it's an F1 or an F2).
Last edited by djthomas on Wed Jan 03, 2018 2:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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