Texas Church shooting

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Re: Texas Church shooting

Postby WY_Not » Thu Nov 09, 2017 1:12 pm

Why go after the CIC? Follow the trail and go after the individual(s) who failed to do their job. Whatever clerk or admin that dropped the ball should face some repercussions.

Brian D. wrote:If we're going to have national databases to track criminal records, there should be consequences for the agencies who fail so badly.

The idealist in me would like to see the US Attorney General and Director of the FBI walk into the Pentagon and arrest the Joint Chiefs of Staff. Or better yet, go round up the guy who was Commander in Chief when the shooter's previous crimes went unreported to the DoJ.

This is a longtime, systemic failure by the Department of Defense.
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Re: Texas Church shooting

Postby deanimator » Thu Nov 09, 2017 2:42 pm

JediSkipdogg wrote:You have to remember this country right now is a near 50/50 split on many issues. If you don't believe so, look at tons of local elections. Very close ties. The Senate and House is the same way. While they represent millions, they are one voice doing so. So the right have to come up with something that will get the fence riding left to go with a bill or idea. And generally, anyone will go with an idea of enforcing current methods and laws on the books if those methods and laws were what failed to prevent someone from getting a weapon to carry out their massacre.

What you have to remember is that the Sudetenland is never enough.

This is not about preventing crime.

This is not about preventing "mass shootings".

This is about creating a governmental monopoly on the means of armed force.

That's why David Dinkins once called for more gun control (in NYC) after a STABBING... with a SCREWDRIVER.

JediSkipdogg wrote:You can't change the far left or far right, it's impossible. Just like I'll never get you to respect cops as a whole.

If you want me to "respect cops as a whole", you'll need to get them [as a whole] to stop supporting cops who commit crimes against citizens. I've never seen an NRA member (never mind dozens) publicly support Dylann Roof. I've seen LOTS of cops support Tony Abbate.
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Re: Texas Church shooting

Postby deanimator » Thu Nov 09, 2017 2:45 pm

WY_Not wrote:Why go after the CIC? Follow the trail and go after the individual(s) who failed to do their job. Whatever clerk or admin that dropped the ball should face some repercussions.

That would be holding somebody responsible for their own actions [and lack of action].

We don't do that anymore.

Of course that person's attorney would [logically] say, "Why my client and not Eric Holder? My client made a mistake. Holder sent hundreds of guns to Mexican drug cartels ON PURPOSE."
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Re: Texas Church shooting

Postby WY_Not » Thu Nov 09, 2017 3:06 pm

Not really a one for one comparison. The CIC did not order, much less endorse anyone not putting a criminal into the system. Eric Holder and others DID endorse a very stupid, dangerous, and criminal act. So yes, in their case hold them as well as any underlings who participated accountable.

deanimator wrote:
WY_Not wrote:Why go after the CIC? Follow the trail and go after the individual(s) who failed to do their job. Whatever clerk or admin that dropped the ball should face some repercussions.

That would be holding somebody responsible for their own actions [and lack of action].

We don't do that anymore.

Of course that person's attorney would [logically] say, "Why my client and not Eric Holder? My client made a mistake. Holder sent hundreds of guns to Mexican drug cartels ON PURPOSE."
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Re: Texas Church shooting

Postby deanimator » Thu Nov 09, 2017 3:12 pm

WY_Not wrote:Not really a one for one comparison. The CIC did not order, much less endorse anyone not putting a criminal into the system. Eric Holder and others DID endorse a very stupid, dangerous, and criminal act. So yes, in their case hold them as well as any underlings who participated accountable.

That's the point.

That non-leadership E-5's counsel is going to argue that it's a political prosecution when people who WILLFULLY committed crimes which led to HUNDREDS of deaths were given a pass.

If Bowe Bergdahl got off, I guarantee you that some clerk will as well... if he's even still in the Air Force.
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Re: Texas Church shooting

Postby Brian D. » Thu Nov 09, 2017 3:30 pm

It's my strong belief that pretty much the the entire DoD knew this had been going on for years. Jedi is a police dispatcher/computer whiz young guy, he has repeatedly mentioned these failures. I'm a retired fire guy, with some PD friends among the people in my shooting circles. They told me about this since the early 1990s.

One was a US assistant prosecutor. He saw these failures and passed along his concerns for decades.
Another ran the local ATF office for years. Occasionally they'd find stolen full auto firearms, the serial numbers would trace back to...Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marines. Tracing them further was nearly always useless (but they would try anyhow), because the military would deny all knowledge of their existence.

You starting to get this, gang? The Pentagon may be the deepest, dankest part of The Swamp.
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Re: Texas Church shooting

Postby deanimator » Thu Nov 09, 2017 3:35 pm

Brian D. wrote:You starting to get this, gang? The Pentagon may be the deepest, dankest part of The Swamp.

If you need proof, I've got two names for you:
  • Bradley Manning
  • Bowe Bergdahl
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Re: Texas Church shooting

Postby carmen fovozzo » Thu Nov 09, 2017 4:07 pm

How the heck did our military go from fighting wars to this BS ?
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Re: Texas Church shooting

Postby WY_Not » Thu Nov 09, 2017 4:07 pm

Yep. And that right there is the problem.

deanimator wrote:
WY_Not wrote:Not really a one for one comparison. The CIC did not order, much less endorse anyone not putting a criminal into the system. Eric Holder and others DID endorse a very stupid, dangerous, and criminal act. So yes, in their case hold them as well as any underlings who participated accountable.

That's the point.

That non-leadership E-5's counsel is going to argue that it's a political prosecution when people who WILLFULLY committed crimes which led to HUNDREDS of deaths were given a pass.

If Bowe Bergdahl got off, I guarantee you that some clerk will as well... if he's even still in the Air Force.
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Re: Texas Church shooting

Postby bignflnut » Thu Nov 09, 2017 8:14 pm

Brian D. wrote:If we're going to have national databases to track criminal records, there should be consequences for the agencies who fail so badly.

The idealist in me would like to see the US Attorney General and Director of the FBI walk into the Pentagon and arrest the Joint Chiefs of Staff. Or better yet, go round up the guy who was Commander in Chief when the shooter's previous crimes went unreported to the DoJ.

This is a longtime, systemic failure by the Department of Defense.


The FBI has it's own issues...
Sometime back in July, Robert Manson, a unit chief in the FBI’s international terrorism section, walked into a bar at the Westin Hotel in Charlotte, NC with his Glock .40-caliber handgun, a $6,000 Rolex watch, $60 in cash and some portion of his dignity. But, according to a newly revealed police report, after inviting at least one of the classy young ladies of the night back to his room for the evening, Manson apparently woke up the next morning with none of those things.

These are the good guys? We rely on these people to keep us safe?
Are you serious?
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Re: Texas Church shooting

Postby deanimator » Thu Nov 09, 2017 8:35 pm

carmen fovozzo wrote:How the heck did our military go from fighting wars to this BS ?

The previous junta decided that fighting wars was an inappropriate use of the military.
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Re: Texas Church shooting

Postby M-Quigley » Thu Nov 09, 2017 9:24 pm

If this article is correct, it seems the problem isn't limited to one airman anyway.

http://www.military.com/daily-news/2017 ... years.html
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Re: Texas Church shooting

Postby schmieg » Thu Nov 09, 2017 10:49 pm

M-Quigley wrote:If this article is correct, it seems the problem isn't limited to one airman anyway.

http://www.military.com/daily-news/2017 ... years.html

This is a systemic problem. Many officers and NCO's feel that the Lautenberg restrictions are wrong (as do many of us here). Assuming they could find the clerk that did not report this and they could prove it was just this clerk that handled things and not a group of them where they can't identify an individual, he might be convicted, but you can bet his defense would be that he did it under orders and that might well be true. If not orders, I would be that it is an unwritten policy of non-compliance. It is more likely that they will find an admin officer or NCO who was in charge of the office and nail him, assuming that he isn't too high up in the food chain by now.

I would like to blame Obama, but I think this predates him and probably dates back to shortly after the passage of Lautenberg.
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Re: Texas Church shooting

Postby drc » Fri Nov 10, 2017 4:52 am

The article on military dot com above mentions numerous incidences involving firearms. at the end it also mentions how charges were withdrawn, downgraded

Five were withdrawn as part of a plea agreement, including two involving Kelley pointing a loaded gun at his wife. He pleaded guilty to striking, choking and kicking his wife and hitting his stepson "with a force likely to produce death or grievous bodily harm."


I wonder how it is going to affect the ongoing career of:

The officer overseeing the case was Robin Rand, then a three-star general and now the four-star commander of Air Force Global Strike Command in charge of the service's bomber force and nuclear missiles.


just like when I worked at a national bank and problems in projects etc arose, a sacrificial lamb was named and publicly pillaged, including loss of job etc. at the bank, the S.L. most often times was innocent, but just the one chosen to have blame hung on. naming Robin Rand already could be preparation for such as he was responsible for allowing the charges to be withdrawn, reduced.
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Re: Texas Church shooting

Postby WY_Not » Fri Nov 10, 2017 8:36 am

The transition started LONG before Bozo took office.

deanimator wrote:
carmen fovozzo wrote:How the heck did our military go from fighting wars to this BS ?

The previous junta decided that fighting wars was an inappropriate use of the military.
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