Texas Church shooting

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Re: Texas Church shooting

Postby rimfireOH » Tue Nov 07, 2017 9:58 am

The WSJ Editorial Board wrote a piece, "A Plumber With a Rifle" that I thought was relevant to the discussion. (I'm not sure if it'll be visible through the paywall, so I'll quote much of it.) Emphasis added by me.

The world is trying to figure out what evil, or madness, caused Devin Kelley to kill 26 people and wound 20 more at the First Baptist Church in Sutherland Springs, Texas, on Sunday morning. But forgive us if we focus on Stephen Willeford, the local plumber who saved lives by grabbing his rifle and firing at Kelley.

The harsh reality of mass murders is that often only the presence of someone with a legal weapon to shoot back can stop the rampage.

We saw this in Virginia this year when Capitol Hill police saved the lives of many Members of Congress. Security officers in Garland, Texas, prevented mass casualties by killing two jihadists in 2015 trying to shoot up a contest featuring cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad.

No one wants crowds of vigilantes looking for someone to shoot, but we’re sure glad Stephen Willeford had a rifle and knew how to use it.


And William McGurn wrote some interesting words on the unwavering faith the anti-gunners have in gun control.
They believe the answer is federal gun control, and this is their right. But it’s hard not to notice they believe this with an absolute faith that seems immune to reason or evidence to the contrary—a secular faith even the most fervent Christian might envy.
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Re: Texas Church shooting

Postby bignflnut » Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:13 am

A classmate said he was on mood drugs between 6th and 9th grade...waiting for medication list...
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Re: Texas Church shooting

Postby Brian D. » Tue Nov 07, 2017 11:35 am

bignflnut wrote:A classmate said he was on mood drugs between 6th and 9th grade...waiting for medication list...


Hope you've got some free time for that to happen..
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Re: Texas Church shooting

Postby WayneB » Tue Nov 07, 2017 6:10 pm

rimfireOH wrote:The WSJ Editorial Board wrote a piece, "A Plumber With a Rifle" that I thought was relevant to the discussion. (I'm not sure if it'll be visible through the paywall, so I'll quote much of it.) Emphasis added by me.

The world is trying to figure out what evil, or madness, caused Devin Kelley to kill 26 people and wound 20 more at the First Baptist Church in Sutherland Springs, Texas, on Sunday morning. But forgive us if we focus on Stephen Willeford, the local plumber who saved lives by grabbing his rifle and firing at Kelley.

The harsh reality of mass murders is that often only the presence of someone with a legal weapon to shoot back can stop the rampage.

We saw this in Virginia this year when Capitol Hill police saved the lives of many Members of Congress. Security officers in Garland, Texas, prevented mass casualties by killing two jihadists in 2015 trying to shoot up a contest featuring cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad.

No one wants crowds of vigilantes looking for someone to shoot, but we’re sure glad Stephen Willeford had a rifle and knew how to use it.


And William McGurn wrote some interesting words on the unwavering faith the anti-gunners have in gun control.
They believe the answer is federal gun control, and this is their right. But it’s hard not to notice they believe this with an absolute faith that seems immune to reason or evidence to the contrary—a secular faith even the most fervent Christian might envy.

I read that the good guy had an AR-15. What I haven't seen yet (and admittedly haven't looked too hard), is the MSM indicating that the bad guy was stopped with an "assault rifle". Like, "we’re sure glad Stephen Willeford had an assault rifle and knew how to use it.
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Re: Texas Church shooting

Postby djthomas » Tue Nov 07, 2017 7:12 pm

WayneB wrote:I read that the good guy had an AR-15. What I haven't seen yet (and admittedly haven't looked too hard), is the MSM indicating that the bad guy was stopped with an "assault rifle". Like, "we’re sure glad Stephen Willeford had an assault rifle and knew how to use it.

No, they're too busy trying to stop themselves from talking about the barefoot hillbilly gun lover and his throat tattooed sidekick in the redneck pick 'em up truck.
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Re: Texas Church shooting

Postby sd790 » Wed Nov 08, 2017 6:59 am

A video interview with the man who stopped the shooter. Lots of interesting little tidbits to learn from. He did a lot of things right and a few things wrong, but deserves to be called a hero.

https://youtu.be/248LN1TiB40
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Re: Texas Church shooting

Postby tech141 » Wed Nov 08, 2017 8:19 pm

He is a Good Man who didn't shirk from what needed to be done. He put down a rabid animal that needed to be put down. I truly hope he doesn't lose one wink of sleep over this.
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Re: Texas Church shooting

Postby bignflnut » Thu Nov 09, 2017 10:08 am

OBTW, this cat escaped from a "mental health facility" in 2012
He was committed to a mental health facility in Santa Teresa, New Mexico, but at some point escaped and was later found by police at a bus station in downtown El Paso in June 2012.


That makes two separate instances regarding the Texas Church Nutjob in which a government agency failed to comply with the law and as a direct result people are dead.

I remind you that involuntary commitment (which requires adjudication of mental incapacity under due process of law!) to a mental facility is also disqualifying for firearms purchases.

You cannot "escape" unless you were there involuntarily!

This is not a "mental health problem at the highest level" as Trump has said. Many people are mentally ill but it takes criminally gross negligence for multiple government agencies and parties to know about that, have both a legal requirement and duty to report same to the appropriate parties and willfully ignore said legal requirement and duty.


The State flat out failed to protect people via their own idiotic laws! Do people really need more proof that the State cannot keep you safe? They're clearly not keeping you free? Why do we beg for them to exert more power?

NICS is junk. Why do pro-2A orgs insist on "improving" the noose that is being used to hang us all? Obviously the .gov doesn't need to obey the laws...but we, the law-abiding, do?

"Mental Illness" is a euphamism for "Feeblemindedness" and is marching us towards some mental fitness test for our gun rights, much like vision tests for driving licenses. See the long con?
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Re: Texas Church shooting

Postby deanimator » Thu Nov 09, 2017 11:09 am

tech141 wrote:He is a Good Man who didn't shirk from what needed to be done.

And that's why the hard left and the anti-gun cult in particular hate him so very much.
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Re: Texas Church shooting

Postby JediSkipdogg » Thu Nov 09, 2017 12:07 pm

bignflnut wrote:NICS is junk. Why do pro-2A orgs insist on "improving" the noose that is being used to hang us all? Obviously the .gov doesn't need to obey the laws...but we, the law-abiding, do?


I think because something needs to be done. You can't sit around and say do nothing anymore. The left is always going to say more laws. The right is always going to say no more laws. Those are facts. So where is the middle that will shut the left up some but give the right an advantage? That would be enforce the current laws on the books and improve the systems to enforce the laws on the books.
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Re: Texas Church shooting

Postby deanimator » Thu Nov 09, 2017 12:40 pm

JediSkipdogg wrote:I think because something needs to be done. You can't sit around and say do nothing anymore. The left is always going to say more laws. The right is always going to say no more laws. Those are facts. So where is the middle that will shut the left up some but give the right an advantage? That would be enforce the current laws on the books and improve the systems to enforce the laws on the books.

There is NOTHING that will shut the anti-gun cult up short of mass disarmament.

Give them "assault weapons" and they will start agitating against "sniper rifles".

Give them "sniper" [hunting] rifles, and they'll go after handguns.

There is no "compromise" with a maximalist, only abject submission or total resistance.

I'm going to go with the latter.
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Re: Texas Church shooting

Postby Brian D. » Thu Nov 09, 2017 12:44 pm

If we're going to have national databases to track criminal records, there should be consequences for the agencies who fail so badly.

The idealist in me would like to see the US Attorney General and Director of the FBI walk into the Pentagon and arrest the Joint Chiefs of Staff. Or better yet, go round up the guy who was Commander in Chief when the shooter's previous crimes went unreported to the DoJ.

This is a longtime, systemic failure by the Department of Defense.
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Re: Texas Church shooting

Postby JediSkipdogg » Thu Nov 09, 2017 12:48 pm

deanimator wrote:
JediSkipdogg wrote:I think because something needs to be done. You can't sit around and say do nothing anymore. The left is always going to say more laws. The right is always going to say no more laws. Those are facts. So where is the middle that will shut the left up some but give the right an advantage? That would be enforce the current laws on the books and improve the systems to enforce the laws on the books.

There is NOTHING that will shut the anti-gun cult up short of mass disarmament.

Give them "assault weapons" and they will start agitating against "sniper rifles".

Give them "sniper" [hunting] rifles, and they'll go after handguns.

There is no "compromise" with a maximalist, only abject submission or total resistance.

I'm going to go with the latter.


You have to remember this country right now is a near 50/50 split on many issues. If you don't believe so, look at tons of local elections. Very close ties. The Senate and House is the same way. While they represent millions, they are one voice doing so. So the right have to come up with something that will get the fence riding left to go with a bill or idea. And generally, anyone will go with an idea of enforcing current methods and laws on the books if those methods and laws were what failed to prevent someone from getting a weapon to carry out their massacre.

Sure, you can sit and argue he could have gone to 8th and Vine and bought it. But you can't say what COULD happen. You can only say what DID happen and change that. So under the current mass shooting, the system in place to stop this individual failed. He never should have been allowed to purchase the weapon he did. Btu he was cleared on a background check that is run by the government. Fixing that flaw is doing something and many fence riders will see that as something. You can't change the far left or far right, it's impossible. Just like I'll never get you to respect cops as a whole. But you can change those in the middle, and those in the middle are generally the biggest ones to change.
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Re: Texas Church shooting

Postby JediSkipdogg » Thu Nov 09, 2017 12:57 pm

Brian D. wrote:If we're going to have national databases to track criminal records, there should be consequences for the agencies who fail so badly.

The idealist in me would like to see the US Attorney General and Director of the FBI walk into the Pentagon and arrest the Joint Chiefs of Staff. Or better yet, go round up the guy who was Commander in Chief when the shooter's previous crimes went unreported to the DoJ.

This is a longtime, systemic failure by the Department of Defense.


I agree. There are flaws on state levels too. I have always thought that the AG should go after agencies that fail to report mandatory reported crimes. And there is a HUGE list in the ORC of them. Some say what could he do to enforce it? Easy, yank the police department's authority to arrest people until they fix it. I can say all 88 county jails have no problem fingerprinting people. It's when departments arrest, process, and release the prisoners themselves that the problem lies. Either from pure laziness, their machine is down so instead of taking them to jail to be processed through for a fingerprint they don't, or they just don't care. Either way, it's on the original agency for not making sure it's done.

As for updating after final disposition. Many times that is the fingerprint information not making it to the clerk of courts. Without a unique ID of the case on the record, they can't update it easily. So if they don't have that unique ID, they assume prints were never taken.

It's a mess and one of my peeves.
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Re: Texas Church shooting

Postby Brian D. » Thu Nov 09, 2017 1:08 pm

Jedi, being sorta old, I remember when these nationwide databases were in their "infancy". Some of the so-called poor states were given federal (meaning our) dollars to centralize, organize, etc. the records from all agencies within their borders. Two years would go by, no discernible progress, and those states had spent the money elsewhere, then poormouthed to DC again. Right then is when Uncle Sammy should have started hooking somebody up in silver bracelets.

I started noticing it at least 25 years ago, maybe more.
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