SC Officer Charged with Murder

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carmen fovozzo
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Re: SC Officer Charged with Murder

Post by carmen fovozzo »

JediSkipdogg wrote:
carmen fovozzo wrote:In your situation of killing because of a sandwich...Are your sandwich's that bad..? :wink: Sorry..I couldn't resist..

If someone fights with me and takes my Maze and uses it on me and then runs away, can I now consider this self-defense and shoot that person as he is running away ? I'm trying to understand the difference in this situation between a LEO and a civilian...
Numerous cases have been cleared as justified when the perp was shot in the back. Look at the Steve Roach case around the early 2000s in Cincinnati. A lot goes into a case and it's not cut and dry. Is the subject an imminent threat to yourself or others? I would say someone fleeing that keeps turning around can be. Sure, they may just be looking behind them, but why? If a perp is running at full speed, why do they care how close the person is behind them? They can't run any faster so they must be looking to come up with a second plan of attack to stay free. Many cases have been cleared on shooting fleeing people reaching for their waist bands. Well, what do most thugs have in common? First their pants won't stay up while they are running, but more importantly, most carry weapons there. The time to distinguish between the two may not be enough to play the safe side, so one has to stand behind their actions. And in many cases, their actions have been correct.

Remember, the jury is not a panel of police officers, generally in an officer case, those are the first ones excluded. So it's a panel of average people that have no bias either way towards law enforcement. If they don't think the elements met the case, then it's clear.

And also, there are ALOT of prosecutors caving to public demand and overcharging. The Tensing case in my opinion is a clear one. Deters went straight for murder without stopping at negligent homicide. Deters believed Tensing went to work that day with the mindset of killing someone, aka planned. Sorry, the jury disagreed. Would he have won Negligent Homicide? I would bet $1000 he could win that, but he didn't charge so. The elements of the crime MUST fit the elements of the charge. Miss one, sorry, charge won't stick.
5 times in the back..
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Re: SC Officer Charged with Murder

Post by JediSkipdogg »

carmen fovozzo wrote:
JediSkipdogg wrote:
carmen fovozzo wrote:In your situation of killing because of a sandwich...Are your sandwich's that bad..? :wink: Sorry..I couldn't resist..

If someone fights with me and takes my Maze and uses it on me and then runs away, can I now consider this self-defense and shoot that person as he is running away ? I'm trying to understand the difference in this situation between a LEO and a civilian...
Numerous cases have been cleared as justified when the perp was shot in the back. Look at the Steve Roach case around the early 2000s in Cincinnati. A lot goes into a case and it's not cut and dry. Is the subject an imminent threat to yourself or others? I would say someone fleeing that keeps turning around can be. Sure, they may just be looking behind them, but why? If a perp is running at full speed, why do they care how close the person is behind them? They can't run any faster so they must be looking to come up with a second plan of attack to stay free. Many cases have been cleared on shooting fleeing people reaching for their waist bands. Well, what do most thugs have in common? First their pants won't stay up while they are running, but more importantly, most carry weapons there. The time to distinguish between the two may not be enough to play the safe side, so one has to stand behind their actions. And in many cases, their actions have been correct.

Remember, the jury is not a panel of police officers, generally in an officer case, those are the first ones excluded. So it's a panel of average people that have no bias either way towards law enforcement. If they don't think the elements met the case, then it's clear.

And also, there are ALOT of prosecutors caving to public demand and overcharging. The Tensing case in my opinion is a clear one. Deters went straight for murder without stopping at negligent homicide. Deters believed Tensing went to work that day with the mindset of killing someone, aka planned. Sorry, the jury disagreed. Would he have won Negligent Homicide? I would bet $1000 he could win that, but he didn't charge so. The elements of the crime MUST fit the elements of the charge. Miss one, sorry, charge won't stick.
5 times in the back..
Reaction, tunnel vision, etc. Ever been to a David Grossman seminar? If not, then you should. There's been plenty of cases where people, Police and normal public, have unloaded an entire magazine. When asked how many times they shot the answer is usually two to three. And no, they aren't carry dehringers.

I can't encourage everyone enough to see A David Grossman seminar. It may help you if you ever have to shoot someone, mentally and legally.
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Re: SC Officer Charged with Murder

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JediSkipdogg wrote:Is the subject an imminent deadly threat to yourself or others?
Fixed that. Let's not forget the important distinction between threat and deadly threat (which incl. serious bodily harm).
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Re: SC Officer Charged with Murder

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Mustang380gal wrote:The other consequence is that we will not have quality men and women signing on to be officers.
Ahhh. And that itself is a question worthy of discussion these days. Do we really have "quality men and women" in our police forces? I've been around five decades and TBH I can't ever remember having so many instances of police shootings or so many accusations of police brutality. Perhaps excessive use of force has gone on all along...there just wasn't video recording technology in the hands of citizens who could document these events.
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Re: SC Officer Charged with Murder

Post by M-Quigley »

JediSkipdogg wrote:
M-Quigley wrote: Walter Scott had a weapon at the time he was shot?
Did the officer know the time he pulled the trigger the first time that he no longer had the weapon? We've all see reaction time. There's a reason no place teaches to shoot once, analyze, shoot, analyze. Tunnel vision also often develops in a self-defense situation. So from the time the suspect stole the taser to the time the first say 3 shots were fired the officer was in reaction mode to his taser being stolen.

If one hasn't seen a Grossman seminar and/or read his books, they are superb books on what happens in a self defense situation.
According to this link he claims he didn't know Walter Scott didn't have the taser at the time he was running away, and that he (Scott) could've been a threat if he had turned around from 18 feet.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/11/29/us/michae ... ter-scott/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
DuRant questioned how the Taser could've posed a threat to Slager 18 feet away.
"Would you agree that even if Mr. Scott had that Taser, it could not have been used against you at the distance depicted on that video?" he asked.
"At that time, I didn't have that information, so I can't answer that question," Slager replied.
He said he didn't know where the Taser was at the time.
Agents from the South Carolina Law Enforcement Division testified that they were concerned by discrepancies between what they saw in the video and what Slager said happened the day of the shooting.
A video presented to the jury did show a struggle, and the men were tangled on the ground with Taser wires.
The defense has argued that Scott was able to take the Taser away from Slager and was coming at the officer with the Taser.
But Agent Angela Petersen said the video did not show the "Taser being taken away, the shell casings in relation to where the body was, and the fact that Mr. Scott (was) running away."
When DuRant asked Petersen if the video matched what she had been told happened at the scene, she said it did not.
Wilson, the solicitor, showed that distance for the jury in court using a measuring tape. She said it was 17 feet when the first bullet was fired from Slager's firearm and more than twice that distance when the last bullet was fired.
The defense played audio from Slager's conversations with dispatch to the jury. In the audio, Slager gives Scott multiple warnings to "stop" and multiple warnings that he was going to fire his Taser.
Savage argued it was Scott's failure to comply with the officer's demands that led to the escalation in use of force.
Slager feared for his life.
During an interview with South Carolina Law Enforcement Division agents in April 2015, Slager said he feared for his life because Scott was calling out his location to someone on his phone during the encounter.

Slager said he was worried about not seeing his family again because he did not know who else might be coming.
The person on the other side of the phone turned out to be Scott's mother, who testified in court that she heard her son say, "They Tasing me."
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Re: SC Officer Charged with Murder

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glocksmith wrote:
Mustang380gal wrote:The other consequence is that we will not have quality men and women signing on to be officers.
Ahhh. And that itself is a question worthy of discussion these days. Do we really have "quality men and women" in our police forces? I've been around five decades and TBH I can't ever remember having so many instances of police shootings or so many accusations of police brutality. Perhaps excessive use of force has gone on all along...there just wasn't video recording technology in the hands of citizens who could document these events.
This morning, there was an officer killed in Americus, GA, and a second wounded. I have bever heard of this many officers killed in the line of duty in a year as I have this year.

Maybe more people are getting shot by officers because people are less moral and more violent. Perhaps the level of force has had to rise to meet that which is being used by violent offenders.

Youth aren't listening to Peter, Paul and Mary anymore. They are listening to music that glorifies killing cops, harming women and inciting violence. Their neighborhoods aren't full of hard working families, but are full of drugs and wasted lives. It's a different world.
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Re: SC Officer Charged with Murder

Post by carmen fovozzo »

IT seems to me also that there are many more shootings....it also seems to me that it is comply or be met with deadly force..no more cracked skulls or busted knees....officers do not want to risk injury to themselves, understandably, so they take the deadly force as there only way to protect themselves......how about in this situation let the BG run until BU comes....it didn't look very long before they did arrive in the video..

IMO officers reaction was to quick and deadly.....IMO officer was very angry....learn to eat a little crow...an officer I know very well said he does his best not to let the little stuff bug him...he ignores it...so far after 20 yrs. it has worked..

I certainly don't know the answers, but I do know that the caliber of LEhas changed a lot...
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Re: SC Officer Charged with Murder

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M-Quigley wrote:According to this link he claims he didn't know Walter Scott didn't have the taser at the time he was running away
He also claims he didn't know that he picked the taser up from where it originally fell and dropped it next to Mr. Scott's body
The video shows Slager walking back to the spot where they struggled, picking up the Taser, and then returning to drop the stun gun near Scott’s body. Asked by his defense lawyer to explain that, Slager said officers are trained to account for their weapons.

“I must have dropped it by Mr. Scott’s body. I don’t remember doing that,” he said. And when asked if he was trying to plant evidence, Slager said no.
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/walter-scot ... otal-fear/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: SC Officer Charged with Murder

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killings by law enforcement officers in the United States, 2016 (listed: 173)
killings by law enforcement officers in the United States, 2015 (listed: 743)
killings by law enforcement officers in the United States, 2014 (listed: 630)
killings by law enforcement officers in the United States, 2013 (listed: 343)
killings by law enforcement officers in the United States, 2012 (listed: 608)
killings by law enforcement officers in the United States, 2011 (listed: 172)
killings by law enforcement officers in the United States, 2010 (listed: 297)
killings by law enforcement officers in the United States, 2009 (listed: 72)
killings by law enforcement officers in the United States prior to 2009 (listed: 172)
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Re: SC Officer Charged with Murder

Post by Mustang380gal »

So this year is on track to be one of the lowest years for people killed by law enforcement in the past 7 years. The MSM is really making hay out of it, then.

DontTreadOnMe wrote: He also claims he didn't know that he picked the taser up from where it originally fell and dropped it next to Mr. Scott's body
The video shows Slager walking back to the spot where they struggled, picking up the Taser, and then returning to drop the stun gun near Scott’s body. Asked by his defense lawyer to explain that, Slager said officers are trained to account for their weapons.

“I must have dropped it by Mr. Scott’s body. I don’t remember doing that,” he said. And when asked if he was trying to plant evidence, Slager said no.
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/walter-scot ... otal-fear/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Adrenaline makes the brain see and understand things way different than normal. It doesn't surprise me that he doesn't remember. Heck, I haven't been in a foot chase, a fight, and then a shooting, and I couldn't remember picking things up and moving them, no adrenaline involved.

How many times have people heard witnesses describe a car accident so differently from each other that you wonder if they even saw the same accident? That's adrenaline.
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Re: SC Officer Charged with Murder

Post by JediSkipdogg »

Mustang380gal wrote:How many times have people heard witnesses describe a car accident so differently from each other that you wonder if they even saw the same accident? That's adrenaline.
We deal with that all the time. Seven witnesses, seven totally different stories. Adrenaline is very amazing on what it can do to the mind. David Grossman has studied that affect on the military and says the same outcomes apply to law enforcement and concealed carriers.

carmen fovozzo wrote:IT seems to me also that there are many more shootings....it also seems to me that it is comply or be met with deadly force..no more cracked skulls or busted knees....officers do not want to risk injury to themselves, understandably, so they take the deadly force as there only way to protect themselves
How do you define serious bodily harm? It's not fully defined in the courts. Is punching serious bodily harm? If you say no then when you see him again, ask Harry Houdini if he thinks one punch can cause death? He's not the only case, there are many, hundreds, even thousands of hand to hand deaths of people. I'd be prepared to take the stand on saying I was justified to shoot someone that came at me to punch me.
carmen fovozzo wrote:......how about in this situation let the BG run until BU comes....it didn't look very long before they did arrive in the video..
You have no idea where they are. It's not like they continue saying on the radio I'm 19, 18, 17, 16....seconds out. In law enforcement, when you get in a self defense situation and you are alone, you have to assume you will be alone for the entire duration of the event. Norwood Police had a slow speed pursuit the other night over someone swerving on the roadway. The person eventually ended up crashing into a house after they accelerated to a high speed pursuit. Should the officer have just let him go? Stats right now are on track for near record high of drunk/drugged driving fatalities. Just let it go is not a possibility when the conditions are right to chase.

carmen fovozzo wrote:I certainly don't know the answers, but I do know that the caliber of LEhas changed a lot...
That's about all I can agree with you on. The problem now is nobody wants to be in law enforcement. Prior to recent years we had over 200 people initially to choose from. Our last test, around 50 took it. The two cities west of my department had 12 and 25 take it. The city to the east had 19...for a possible 6 spots. Odds are good you get hired. But odds are bad the city has someone that can switch from combat skill to coddle mode quite easily.
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Re: SC Officer Charged with Murder

Post by carmen fovozzo »

Adrenaline...is it not controlled by training and time on the job to a degree ? I have to say I was surprised by the above numbers of killings....would like to know the numbers on police shootings also..non-leathal...

IT's amazing how we take the evidence and use it in our favor...12 jurors,11 for 1 against..they had all the evidence...I believe he should of been found guilty of man slaughter...

I wonder if any, altercations this officer has been involved in ? HE had 1 stripe on his sleeve...this was no rookie...this was a experienced officer...sorry, but I have a hard time that he shot someone 5 times in the back... a unarmed person..
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Re: SC Officer Charged with Murder

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I remember years back when my Son was taking tests....there were 100's of applications...it's a cruelling job, I sure as hell wouldn't do it..
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Re: SC Officer Charged with Murder

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carmen fovozzo wrote:...sorry, but I have a hard time that he shot someone 5 times in the back... a unarmed person..
You aren't alone here. Yes, there are a few very vocal police supporters...err apologists (same thing these days) who will side with the police no matter how compelling the evidence. A similar example of what we have here is the Democrats supporting the criminal Clinton....their minds have permanently snapped shut and they will ignore/deny any wrongdoing no matter how compelling the evidence. Those on the other side...critics of the police...are no different...and they will be quick to accuse an LEO of excessive force. The difference in this Slager case is that we have very clear and obvious video evidence of exactly what happened...the suspect was unarmed, retreating at an increasing distance with his back turned to Slager, and rather than pursue the suspect, Slager kept firing at or into his back until he went down. Any ordinary citizen can watch that video and quickly arrive at a beyond a reasonable doubt conclusion. The problem comes in when prosecutors, lawyers and the police themselves introduce all sorts of confusing legal mumbo-jumbo and other terminology to confuse the jury and citizenry...and plant seeds of doubt in their mind. It is no wonder that, just as with Tensing, there was a lack of consensus in what should have been a short trial. If anyone simply watches the video of Slager, it is quite easy to see what happened and any reasonably intelligent person would conclude that the shooting was unjustified. It is what it is...unless you want to pull a Bill Clinton tactic and confuse everyone by saying "it depends on what the definition of is...is".
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Re: SC Officer Charged with Murder

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According to Legal Insurrection website, run by a Cornell University law professor, the 11-1 number may not have been accurate. There may have been 5 or more who were not prepared to vote for manslaughter. I am unsure whether they completely ruled out murder, or if that was deadlocked.

AS far as I know, and from what my experience was on a federal jury, we were not allowed to tell the judge how many were voting one way or the other. If that is an accurate number, someone overstepped boundaries.

I have never been one to side one way or another without reasonable thought. Sometimes I think the cops did awful, as in Vegas, in the case of Erik Scott. Sometimes I think the cop did good. In this case, there is enough evidence that Slager feared for his life with good reason, so that he is not guilty.

Video did not capture the entire encounter. It is one piece of evidence that needs to be taken in context.

The issue should not be where was Scott shot, but was Slager justified in doing so. He didn't get charged with murder because he was "whizzed off". He got charged in a feeble attempt to placate mobs. In any other political climate, this would not have gone anywhere, nor should it have.
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