Helpless NYC citizen slain after escape from robbery

[pjmurph]

If you have gun in hand and you are about to tackle someone,in a split second, is that the correct method ? There must be some form of SOP....Or is there ?

My thoughts exactly. Wouldn't it make sense for officers to be trained to quickly reholster before grabbing/tackling someone they believe to be a suspect when that person is not displaying a weapon? Granted we are talking about the NYPD here so common sense and logic go out the window, but I digress. So say the victim who was shot was in fact the suspect who committed the robbery, wasn't all he was doing at that point was fleeing? Which at that point the situation becomes a foot pursuit and does not require the officers gun to be drawn unless a threat is presented?

[Vex]

I completely agree, but in this case, with the culprits being charged for the shot he fired, what happens to him? Does he get charged with anything? In a perfect world he would never work as a police officer again but I feel like that's not going to be the case. I only ask because I'm an electrician and I can assure you if a person was electrocuted because I was not following safety precautions, I would have to answer for my mistake.

I considered going the route of pointing out that electricians have time to consider the possibilities and practice safe procedures without having to make sudden split-second decisions, but that argument would be a bit fallacious and completely miss the point.

So, I'll play along. If an electrician kills someone due to negligence, the chances of criminal charges are slim. Instead, the family sues the company, and the company's insurance pays out millions of dollars for wrongful death. The same thing happens with the police. The insurance pays out a lawsuit, the officer is reprimanded and a bad letter is placed in his file, and the officer gets to live with the fact that he killed an innocent person.

See, when a cop does something wrong, people want to see criminal charges because they view it from the perspective of if THEY did it themselves. If you tackled someone and accidentally killed him, you would be expected to be charged criminally, right? But the job of the police is dealing with people, and often times the non-LEO population can't make that distinction. One person does something wrong to another person? THROW HIM IN JAIL!

Yet, nobody ever asks for criminal charges when the shrimp was a couple days over at Red Lobster and 20 people got food poisoning. Why is that? Because, we all expect there to be accidents, as these things are done by people. People are not perfect, and cops are people, too. Instead, we call Red Lobster and get a $20 gift card, and forget about it a couple weeks later.

But my overall point is a little further than that, actually. As an electrician, imagine this: A person goes to an electrician's college and somewhere is taught that it's okay to use 16 gauge wire on a 20 amp circuit. Things just happen to be okay for a couple years, because all his customers only want 15 amp circuits, which are fine for the bulk 16 gauge wire he ordered, but one day he's going to screw up and catch someone's house on fire. Who do you blame? The electrician, because he should know better? Let's sue him, sue his company, and throw him in jail for the negligent murders of 5 people. Right?

Wrong. We blame the idiots at the school who taught him the wrong thing in the first place. Here this poor, blue collar, working man accidentally kills 5 people because he didn't know any better. He may lose his license for a couple months, or have to go through remedial training, but he's back on the job in less than a year, scarred from the deaths he caused because he just didn't know better.

I submit for your consideration that this officer didn't know better. It's freaking NY City, run by a plethora of liberal tight wads who require special triggers on their handguns because they think it'll save lives. Didn't work here, oddly enough, because NYPD has poor training, poor management, and nobody with the cajones to stand up and say "Country bumpkins from middle Ohio know better than we do!"

Don't believe me? Go back and look at the video I posted. Ignore the first part, and go right to 44 seconds. Watch it until 58 seconds, when the officer finally pulls his gun out. For 14 seconds he's standing in front of the door, walking around, looking confused, or, even better, looking like he wants to know why the shop isn't open so he can pick up a churro and cup of coffee. This isn't how officers where I come from respond to a robbery in progress, but this is how they train the NYPD. Furthermore, when the "witness" comes out, he already has his gun out and points it at the witness, but the witness points inside and probably says something along the lines of "The bad guys are in there, they have a gun!" Guess who runs out a mere second later?

So, you can blame the officer all you want, just like someone somewhere would blame an electrician for not understanding you don't put 16 gauge wire on a 20 amp circuit.... Me? I blame the idiots in the NYPD administration, and every video of the NYPD that comes out reinforces this belief. I have major, serious respect for NYPD officers, because Lord knows I couldn't do that job with that crap training for $40k a year. The bottom line is this: We expect the police to respond to dramatic situations, which is something we don't expect from the general population. Because of this, the police are given a little more leeway to make mistakes. Otherwise, nobody sane would do the job.

[pjmurph]

After going back and watching the video from the surveillance cameras I would say that the previous scenario I mentioned is essentially moot in this situation. With how little time there was between the first person running out and the second person running out and into the officer, I'm not sure there was anything that he really did wrong IMHO. From the video it looks like the officer paused to listen to what the first man out the door was saying and then turns to see another man running directly at him, so it would make sense to me that he would perceive that as a threat to his life and place his finger in the trigger guard expecting to have to defend himself. Regardless, without the officer actually coming out and saying it, it will be impossible to know whether he fired because he perceived the man as a threat or it was in fact an accident.

[pjmurph]

Vex, if there were a like button on forums I would like the hell out of that response

[Vex]

After going back and watching the video ... I'm not sure there was anything that he really did wrong IMHO.

Well, that's debatable. I believe the officer did everything he was trained to do, and this highlights a problem with the NYPD's "logic" (and I use that term loosely). He should not have just walked up all nonchalant to a robbery in progress, since he was dispatched there. Second, he paces back and forth in front of the front door. Bad tactics. If you're going to wait, wait. If you're going to go in, you go in with your gun out and giving verbal commands, not pacing back and forth like a tourist. Third, he basically let people run the scene for him. When the witness came out, he had his hands up (good!), but the officer let his guard down at the witness's word. More bad tactics. There have been incidents where a bad guy tries to pretend he's a victim, drops his weapon, puts his hands up, and says "Help me!" You can't tell who is the good guy and who is a bad guy.

Wait a second.... That happened in this exact same incident: http://www.myfoxny.com/story/19481203/d ... -the-bronx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

One of the two walked out of the store about 5 a.m. claiming to be a victim.

Police found the second man tied up inside as part of the ruse, Browne said.

Vex, if there were a like button on forums I would like the hell out of that response

That's very kind of you. I don't always make sense, but when I do, I drink Dos Equis.

[bignflnut]

I would have liked to see video past the cut, to see the other good guy's reaction and see another 30 seconds.

[Vex]

I would have liked to see video past the cut, to see the other good guy's reaction and see another 30 seconds.

Want me to do an FOIA request for it?

[Vex]

Hey, just wanted to let you know I called the FOIL office in NY today, and they specifically stated they can't release the remainder of the video until the case is over. The only thing they can release has already been released through the public relations office, which is the video with the commissioner's voice-over explanation.

I'll try to keep an eye on the case and file the FOIL/FOIA request when it's over.