CHL & Instructor: Citizen Arrest at gunpoint

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BobK
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CHL & Instructor: Citizen Arrest at gunpoint

Post by BobK »

This happened 5 miles from my home, and 50 yards from one of my favorite restaurants.

Violent carjacking team of 4 being chased by cops and crashes. The was the sixth carjacking by this crew in the previous 6 hours.

Ryan Hansen, who is an ordinary citizen, CHL, and Texas Concealed Carry Firearms Instructor sees one of the men fleeing the scene. He draws his firearm, chases the guy, puts him on the ground at gunpoint, and holds him until the cops can take the BG into custody.

http://www.myfoxhouston.com/story/19292 ... -gun-store" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So, do you think this was a case of the law enforcement quote being, "We really don't advise citizens to do that"?

Nope. The Chief had this quote to the press:
"If you want a definition of why we build prisons in Texas, it's because of these four individuals. These guys are violent individuals," said Chief Mark Herman.

...

"He made a citizen's arrest which is legal in Texas. He helped us out and we're thankful," agreed Chief Herman who believes the suspected carjackers are responsible for dozens of violent crimes across the Houston area.
As for the legalities, here is an accurate quote on Texas law:
Do those licensed to carry have a lawful right to draw their weapon, even if their own life is not being threatened?

FOX 26 Legal expert Chris Tritico says in this case, the act of pulling a pistol is protected.

"Under Texas law, you have the right to use deadly force to protect someone else's property. If some one is committing an immediate breach of the peace, a felony or fleeing from theft, as in this case, you have a right to stop them and use deadly force if you have to," said Tritico.
I generally agree with the typically expressed sentiment that a CHL is not a batman license, and there are severe downsides to people are risking everything for someone else's property.

But it is hard to argue with results.

Also note that if these were a half-dozen violent carjackings, this wasn't just an arrest for a property crime. This is arresting violent robbers who sooner or later were going to kill someone.
I am a: NRA Life Member, Texas State Rifle Association Life Member, Texas Firearms Coalition Gold member, OFCC Patron Member, former JFPO member (pre-SAF).

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Tweed Ring
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Re: CHL & Instructor: Citizen Arrest at gunpoint

Post by Tweed Ring »

God Bless Texas.
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Werz
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Re: CHL & Instructor: Citizen Arrest at gunpoint

Post by Werz »

Sometimes, it works out better when an armed citizen is involved.

After Tennessee v. Garner, the cops know they had better have a really good argument about how dangerous the guy is before they shoot a fleeing felon. They may threaten to shoot him, but most will not.

Unfortunately, the bad guys know that, too. And most of them assume that, if they keep running, the cops won't shoot them, and they may be able to outrun them.

When it's not a cop, but an armed citizen chasing them, they may start wondering, "Would this guy really shoot me?"
"An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life."
-- Robert A. Heinlein, Beyond This Horizon
"Remember that protecting our gun rights still boils down to keeping a majority in the electorate, and that our daily activities can have the impact of being ambassadors for the gun culture ..."
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brian0918
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Re: CHL & Instructor: Citizen Arrest at gunpoint

Post by brian0918 »

How does Ohio law compare in these scenarios:

1. Legality of citizen's arrest
2. Pulling a gun to perform citizen's arrest (but no imminent threat or fleeing a crime)
3. Pulling a gun for citizen's arrest when the suspect is fleeing a crime or is an imminent threat.
bunkeru2k
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Re: CHL & Instructor: Citizen Arrest at gunpoint

Post by bunkeru2k »

Citizen's arrest is legal in Ohio for a felony violation.

Using firearm is going to be touchy in that you can only use deadly force if your life or another's life is in danger or there is a threat of serious bodily harm. In Ohio, MUCH of that is going to depend on where it took place. Some prosecutors are going to give a whole lot more leeway than others.
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Re: CHL & Instructor: Citizen Arrest at gunpoint

Post by WestonDon »

Can't argue with success.

I have to wonder however is Mr. Hansen known to the police? I am thinking that drawing your gun and intervening between the police and BG could end badly regardless of legalities.
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Re: CHL & Instructor: Citizen Arrest at gunpoint

Post by Werz »

brian0918 wrote:How does Ohio law compare in these scenarios:

1. Legality of citizen's arrest
2. Pulling a gun to perform citizen's arrest (but no imminent threat or fleeing a crime)
3. Pulling a gun for citizen's arrest when the suspect is fleeing a crime or is an imminent threat.
RC 2935.04
When a felony has been committed, or there is reasonable ground to believe that a felony has been committed, any person without a warrant may arrest another whom he has reasonable cause to believe is guilty of the offense, and detain him until a warrant can be obtained.
RC 2935.07
When an arrest is made by a private person, he shall, before making the arrest, inform the person to be arrested of the intention to arrest him and the cause of the arrest.
RC 2935.06
A private person who has made an arrest pursuant to section 2935.04 of the Revised Code * * * shall forthwith take the person arrested before the most convenient judge or clerk of a court of record or before a magistrate, or deliver such person to an officer authorized to execute criminal warrants who shall, without unnecessary delay, take such person before the court or magistrate having jurisdiction of the offense. The officer may, but if he does not, the private person shall file or cause to be filed in such court or before such magistrate an affidavit stating the offense for which the person was arrested.
Beyond that, the law is rather hazy. Some use of reasonable force will be presumed inherent in making a lawful arrest. And if the arrest is lawful, the law of self-defense still applies. However, most of the relevant case law is from the 1950s, and you wouldn't want to rely on that. Simply put, it would be extremely risky to use deadly force under those circumstance.

If the person really is fleeing from a felony (and you had better know the law pretty well), you might get away with threatening deadly force if the person submits. If the offense is a violent felony, like the Texas carjacking described above, you will probably get away with threatening deadly force if the person submits. If the person calls your bluff and keeps running, don't shoot.

There is no crystal clear answer, and anyone who claims to have one is a fool.
"An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life."
-- Robert A. Heinlein, Beyond This Horizon
"Remember that protecting our gun rights still boils down to keeping a majority in the electorate, and that our daily activities can have the impact of being ambassadors for the gun culture ..."
-- BobK
Open carry is a First Amendment exercise.
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SigMan
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Re: CHL & Instructor: Citizen Arrest at gunpoint

Post by SigMan »

In Ohio i'd have to take a pass on pulling my weapon to chase a carjacker. It may be different seeing the actual carjacking take place being that carjacking is considered a violent crime and usually, but not always, a weapon is involved.
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SMMAssociates
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Re: CHL & Instructor: Citizen Arrest at gunpoint

Post by SMMAssociates »

Just IMHO, but here in OH, probably a bad idea....

But it's really a YMMV situation. The case presented here likely would be fine, as long as the LEO's involved didn't mistake you for a BG.

Probably better to take out the camera and/or be a good witness, and drop the dime.

(It's better to presume that you can't do anything but endanger yourself.)

HOWEVER, this situation looks like a perfect "gotta get involved", and, while there's no solid yes/no, if you feel right about getting involved, well, you've trained for it. (Haven't you? :))

IMHO, unless you're in a "shoot him if he moves" sort of situation, where the existing case law might justify actually using deadly force, you probably should leave the "You're Under Arrest!" thing to the arriving LEO's. Simplifies the mess when the BG's lawyer asks where you go the arrest authority.... Particularly in Civil Court, should it come to that, the BG's lawyer is going to try to impugn your actions any way he can. Invalidating your actions might help the BG - particularly in a civil suit.

If you actually do have to use deadly force, it's going to get messy.

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Stu.

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(Why do those who claim to wish to protect me feel that the best way to do that is to disarm me?)

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Tweed Ring
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Re: CHL & Instructor: Citizen Arrest at gunpoint

Post by Tweed Ring »

Large areas of Texas still hold dear to some of their "cowboy" ways. Wonderful state with few Liberal enclaves.

Once, in a Texas dance hall, accompanied by my transplanted-from-Ohio sister and BIL, I was asked by the proprietor if I wanted a "chit." I thought he was being disrespectful; my BIL finally informed me that the gentleman was inquiring as to if I wanted to check my handgun. Wonderful state...
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wkdravenna
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Re: CHL & Instructor: Citizen Arrest at gunpoint

Post by wkdravenna »

He could have been a murderer for all that guy knew, hes right to do what he did.
My fellow Americans, ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country. - JFK
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Re: CHL & Instructor: Citizen Arrest at gunpoint

Post by Mustang380gal »

brian0918 wrote:How does Ohio law compare in these scenarios:

1. Legality of citizen's arrest
2. Pulling a gun to perform citizen's arrest (but no imminent threat or fleeing a crime)
3. Pulling a gun for citizen's arrest when the suspect is fleeing a crime or is an imminent threat.
A while back in our county, a teenage boy committed a sexual assault on a toddler. Toddler's cousin caught him in the act, and got him away from the child. The boy was roughly taken to the front yard where the sheriff's deputies found him kneeling, held at shotgun point by the cousin. Boy was arrested, cousin was commended in his use of restraint. Cousin was also under 18.

Sheriff's deputy who told us about this in the ER said it would have been a different ballgame had cousin shot him. That would have been unjustified.
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Re: CHL & Instructor: Citizen Arrest at gunpoint

Post by jabeatty »

Mustang380gal wrote:Sheriff's deputy who told us about this in the ER said it would have been a different ballgame had cousin shot him. That would have been unjustified.
If he shot him "in the act," the law (if applied as written) would find him justified.
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Re: CHL & Instructor: Citizen Arrest at gunpoint

Post by MrKitty »

I'm glad to see this worked out well! As everyone has said, I highly doubt this would've worked out had it happened in Ohio. =(
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Re: CHL & Instructor: Citizen Arrest at gunpoint

Post by docachna »

SigMan wrote:In Ohio i'd have to take a pass on pulling my weapon to chase a carjacker. It may be different seeing the actual carjacking take place being that carjacking is considered a violent crime and usually, but not always, a weapon is involved.
I'd have to expand that into chasing almost anybody. Protecting, yes ..... chasing ???........probably not.
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