Now Zimmerman's a child molester?

[MFDoom]

I have very polite manners. I am also a paid member of the organization, waiting on my card and my forum badge. If saying bull crap in all caps to express my opinion would get me banned then what does that say about this forum and the right to engage in free speech and debate. I did not curse, call anyone out of their name or insult anyone in any way.

We all have our own opinions and from what I can tell, most of us enjoy a spirited debate. I don't plan to go anywhere as I enjoy participating in this forum and being informed on whats going on in the CCW scene in Ohio. I look forward in our mutual continuing engagement about topics we agree on, and those that we don't.

[wobblygoblin]

You know, when I worked in the ER, we'd see lots of people walking in, complaining that they "fell" or somesuch. We'd ask where they hurt.

Many times, it would be "here" and "here" and "kind of hurts here".

The more places the person complained about, the less likely that any were serious injuries.

I think the prosecution is doing much the same. He's a murderer. Then he's racist. Then comes liar who can't be trusted. Now he's a child molester.

The more they pile on, the less likely I believe anything coming out from the prosecution's side.

Jedi, you should be able to at least sympathize why some would feel that way.

A child is dead and someone needs to answer for that and he will answer for it in a court of law guilty or innocent.

Child? He was 17, and the same size as an adult. My oldest son is 18. No way on earth I would have referred to my son as a "child" at 17. Heck, my 14 year old son is as tall as my husband, and wouldn't want to be called a "child" either.

And that "young man" did some injury to Zimmerman.

BULL CRAP. No one cares what your son (who I assume & hope is very much alive) wants to be called. That is immaterial.

Trayvonn Martin was a child. He was 17 years old. He was in high school. He did not have the right to vote or own a hand gun. He could not enlist in our Armed Forces. He was a child regardless of how big or small his stature of physique was. Zimmerman profiled and stalked that child. Trayvon had a right to stand his ground and defend himself from a strange man following him. Who was Zimmerman to decide that any law abiding citizen walking down the street was "up to no good". The fact that the police call establishes that Zimmerman chased down Martin rather than the other way around is every indication that Zimmerman instigated this. This wasn't what Stand Your Ground was meant to do.

And I don't believe for 1 second that George "Grown Man" Zimmerman couldn't take a 17 year old in a fight.

Ohhh brother

I smell a troll

[wobblygoblin]

Jedi, you should be able to at least sympathize why some would feel that way.

A child is dead and someone needs to answer for that and he will answer for it in a court of law guilty or innocent.

I don't. The evidence is pretty clear cut. He was attacked, he was in danger of being knocked out and possibly killed, and he defended himself.

Every year the government and the defendants spend billions upon billions of dollars in court for things that should have never been prosecuted, usually because of some "public outrage" or an overzealous LEO/prosecutor. We see this frequently with legal CCWs and open carriers, such as the recent case with Harley in southern Ohio. Or in the open carry case in Michigan, where the defense attorney blatantly stated multiple times that they could dismiss the case without fear of being sued... they didn't, and now they're being sued (sued for tax dollars, mind you).

Race, as an issue, has become less about "we want equality" and more about "we want special treatment," and it only got worse when we elected a black president who refuses to prosecute extremist race-focused paramilitary groups for voter intimidation. Everyone is expected to hate the KKK, but if you hate the Black Panthers, you're a racist. As a LEO, I can tell you everything is about race when you're dealing with a black person. They're caught shoplifting? They say I'm racist. They're arrested for domestic violence? I must be racist. They rob a gas station? Guess it's my fault since I'm a racist. Driving under suspension with four pounds of marijuana in the trunk? It's MY fault since I'm a racist. Even the black officers are accused of being race haters and Uncle Toms, and the media desperately seeks another race riot/war because it brings in viewers who are tired of watching political talk all the time, since that's 85% of the "news" these days.

Race is a non-issue 99.99% of the time, but if you ask a black person, it's ALWAYS an issue. That disconnect is leading us to a race riot in Sanford, FL, and every time someone sympathizes with them, another log is thrown on the fire.

As for your facts, you've got it all wrong. The police call did not establish that Zimmerman chased Martin. In fact, it actually establishes that Zimmerman did NOT follow Martin. If you were chasing someone, would you continue to calmly talk to the 911 dispatcher for 4 minutes after stating you lost sight of the subject?

As for being a child, we've got grown men in high school. Mr. Martin was a man, regardless of his age, because age is simply a number used for legal purposes and has no bearing on stature, weight, strength, or mental capacity. Want proof?

Here's a 17 year old who killed both of his parents: http://abcnews.go.com/US/teen-allegedly ... d=14098996" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Here's a 15 year old, killed both of his parents with his bare hands: http://www.ktla.com/news/landing/ktla-o ... 5671.story" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Another 17 year old killed his parents when they tossed $20 worth of marijuana: http://www.tokeofthetown.com/2011/09/te ... _marij.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Another 15 year old strangled his parents: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... chool.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And here's a 17 year old who killed one and injured an off-duty police officer during a home invasion: http://blogs.riverfronttimes.com/dailyr ... vasion.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Simple fact, you need to understand that these "children" are a threat just the same as any man. They're more athletic than older guy, have more testosterone, and usually have more pent up rage and anger without being able to control it as well. Martin was 6 foot 2, 170lbs, a football athlete, and had gotten in to fights with a "grown man" bus driver. Any wonder why most murders are committed by people aged 17-24? A grown teenager is usually more of a threat than someone who is 35-40, simple fact. You act like a man, we're going to treat you like one.

Finally, you really need to watch your manners around here. This forum focuses on polite discussion, and even if you disagree with someone, you need to do it politely. Saying "bull crap" to a moderator in all caps is a surefire way to get banned. I hope you last longer than a couple days around here. You have 6 posts. Nobody will miss you if you get yourself banned.

(Slow golf clap) very, very, very well said Vex.

[rDigital]

Yep, troll indeed. Here's the same guy on the Highroad defending Holder & Obama on Fast & Furious.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=665917

[Mustang380gal]

I have very polite manners. I am also a paid member of the organization, waiting on my card and my forum badge. If saying bull crap in all caps to express my opinion would get me banned then what does that say about this forum and the right to engage in free speech and debate. I did not curse, call anyone out of their name or insult anyone in any way.

We all have our own opinions and from what I can tell, most of us enjoy a spirited debate. I don't plan to go anywhere as I enjoy participating in this forum and being informed on whats going on in the CCW scene in Ohio. I look forward in our mutual continuing engagement about topics we agree on, and those that we don't.

Could have fooled me...

It's OFCC's living room. You follow the rules of the house. If you haven't read the TOS yet, you can find them here

[MFDoom]

This is getting interesting.

Am I a troll because I don't share most of your political beliefs? Is it because I choose to share different opinions and back them up with independent facts.

Am I a troll if I go back and call out and confirm when I made a mistake, (i.e. I thought the enlistment age was 18, and I have been informed that it is 17).

Not every 2A supporter listens to Beck, Rush, or reads Drudge. Sorry if I don't fit in your box. I do have the same screen name across many gun related forums. So if you see a MFDoom anywhere else odds are its me.

Have a good night!

[MFDoom]

I have very polite manners. I am also a paid member of the organization, waiting on my card and my forum badge. If saying bull crap in all caps to express my opinion would get me banned then what does that say about this forum and the right to engage in free speech and debate. I did not curse, call anyone out of their name or insult anyone in any way.

We all have our own opinions and from what I can tell, most of us enjoy a spirited debate. I don't plan to go anywhere as I enjoy participating in this forum and being informed on whats going on in the CCW scene in Ohio. I look forward in our mutual continuing engagement about topics we agree on, and those that we don't.

Could have fooled me...

It's OFCC's living room. You follow the rules of the house. If you haven't read the TOS yet, you can find them here

I read them. If I have violated a specific clause of the TOS can you PM and tell me exactly what I violated. I plan to be here participating as a responsible forum member.

[rDigital]

Oh look another 17 year old baby kid youngling "Child" killing an adult with their bare hands. Right down the street from some of us. That lady should have been able to take him, after all he's just a "child".

http://www.newsnet5.com/dpp/news/local_ ... n-driveway

On the troll issue, MediaMatters is REAL independent journalism.

[JediSkipdogg]

Well said Vex. My applause goes up to you for the best post in this thread.

MFDoom, you don't have to share our opinion...however, if you want to debate do so with facts. Age is immaterial for what occurred here. He was close enough to an adult and legally under certain crimes can be tried as an adult. If TM wants to act like an adult, he is going to be treated like one. There is no evidence that has come up that disputes GZ statement that he was in the act of retreating to meet the officers when TM blindsided him to attack him. Therefore TM is the aggressor under all states as not being at fault. Once you retreat, such that GZ was doing by his own words (nothing to dispute that has come to light), you end the current situation and start a new situation. TM then started the new situation in which GZ had to use deadly force to end.

Warren County just arrested a 17 year old for running one of the largest drug operations they have ever seen. He's just a kid right? So we should go easy on him. Who knows how many he affected, but he was only a kid.

[evan price]

Oh look another 17 year old baby kid youngling "Child" killing an adult with their bare hands. Right down the street from some of us. That lady should have been able to take him, after all he's just a "child".

http://www.newsnet5.com/dpp/news/local_ ... n-driveway

On the troll issue, MediaMatters is REAL independent journalism.

17 year old Tyler Hadley killed his parents with a hammer.
15 year old Tristen Owen firebombed his neighbors house killin both of them
16 year old Kendall Anderson killed his mother over not being allowed to play PS3
17 year old Daniel Petrick shot both parents and killed his mom because she took away Halo 3 game.


And just to make a refresher to MF Doom- the First Amendment deals with things the Federal Government may not do, not individuals. There is no protection on a privately owned forum. You'd think people would know these things.

[wobblygoblin]

No I thought your post was for a troll for your "out of the box" defense of someone who is 17 and whom you consider a child and for the way you replied to Mustang.

You certainly don't have to lean right to support the Second Amendment but from viewing your post on the other forum (linked in this thread) that you don't believe that F&F was done to promote gun control then yes, I think tha is naive, to say the least.

[wobblygoblin]

Well said Vex. My applause goes up to you for the best post in this thread.

MFDoom, you don't have to share our opinion...however, if you want to debate do so with facts. Age is immaterial for what occurred here. He was close enough to an adult and legally under certain crimes can be tried as an adult. If TM wants to act like an adult, he is going to be treated like one. There is no evidence that has come up that disputes GZ statement that he was in the act of retreating to meet the officers when TM blindsided him to attack him. Therefore TM is the aggressor under all states as not being at fault. Once you retreat, such that GZ was doing by his own words (nothing to dispute that has come to light), you end the current situation and start a new situation. TM then started the new situation in which GZ had to use deadly force to end.

Warren County just arrested a 17 year old for running one of the largest drug operations they have ever seen. He's just a kid right? So we should go easy on him. Who knows how many he affected, but he was only a kid.

Keep in mind there are plenty of "kids" carrying AKs in parts of the world where they'd gut an American just for being so. Plenty of "kids" strapping bombs to themselves and blowing up our soldiers. Plenty of "kids" killing each other in Chicago over asphalt, and in turn, killing innocent children in the crossfire. Plenty of "kids" who alone are cowards but in mobs find the "courage" to attack unarmed bystanders and old ladies.

[Vex]

Not every 2A supporter listens to Beck, Rush, or reads Drudge. Sorry if I don't fit in your box. I do have the same screen name across many gun related forums. So if you see a MFDoom anywhere else odds are its me.

Gun control isn't about politics unless you're a politician. Fast and Furious effects all gun owners, because the same people who are allowing guns to walk across the border are then turning around and saying "See! Guns are bad, mmkay!?" and then plotting to create legislation to limit gun ownership. Remember last year when Obama told the Brady Campaign that he had a secret project planned to get more gun restriction under the radar? What if Fast and Furious was that plan?? It's okay to say "Hey, Obama, I like you, but you messed up here!"

The Zimmerman case also isn't about politics any more than it's about race. George Zimmerman is a registered democrat, yet most democrats want him thrown in jail. Why is that? Because they see an open opportunity to attack the NRA, Stand Your Ground, and gun ownership in general. It's a means to an ends. Zimmerman's exact story could have been recorded by no less than half a dozen people with high definition night-vision and thermal-infrared cameras, and people would still attack his story. Making a big deal, decrying the incident as a narrative on race relations, and turning it in to headlines is the nature of the political beast, and if you buy in to it, you're doing a disservice to yourself.

Luckily for us, more "real" people every day are beginning to see the light, and more sheep are taking up arms as they realize that personal protection isn't just a God given right, it's a personal responsibility. We appreciate everyone's viewpoints, regardless, but not everything has to be political. That being said, I personally don't think you're a troll, but I also don't believe you're familiar with a certain former-poster who used to very purposely ignore certain facts of the case (and completely make up others). Zimmerman is a 4-letter word on this forum because of it, and when you throw in purposeful manipulation of the evidence by the media, you've got a perfect recipe for emotional (and therefore, pointless) debate. We're all a little on edge any time someone brings up the old facts, such as "Zimmerman chased Martin." That single line is a sure fire way to get people fired up.

Politics exists on TV, on the radio, and in Washington, but not here. We're not easily generalized as fans of conservatives Hannity and Rush, or liberals like Colmes, Franken, or Olbermann, because the majority of us find just as much fault with what they say as we support. Simply, the majority of the people on this forum are about 20% conservatives and 20% liberals, and the rest of us are simple God fearing men* who just want the government to stay out of our lives.

*And the women we serve, whom we don't deserve.

[BorisTheSpider]

Is it because I choose to share different opinions and back them up with independent facts.

Yes. It is because you back them up with facts that are independent of the truth.

Honestly, we've got a lot of good discussions on the Zimmerman case, full of great pieces of actual truth...and they're usually closed pretty quickly due to petty squabbling over differences in opinion. The other Zimmerman thread that is still open has a lot of good debate, but it's still polite.

In fact, I'd say that most of those old opinions you're throwing out based on misinformation have already been discussed in other threads. I would highly encourage you to take the time to read through those other threads. Whatever you think of it after that is fine, but you'll also see what leads to penalties from the mods (such as thread closure or member banning), and get a good idea of how everyone communicates around here.

I don't think anyone here will back down from a good debate, but we don't do bickering.

[Mustang380gal]

Simply, the majority of the people on this forum are about 20% conservatives and 20% liberals, and the rest of us are simple God fearing men and women who just want the government to stay out of our lives.

Fixed that for you.

I'm not Mustang380guy, you know....