I've heard for years that there's an unwritten "needed killin'" provision in Texas law.BobK wrote:Glad I live in Texas. There is the law as written in the statute, but there is also the unwritten law that law enforcement uses when deciding whether self defense was reasonable: "Did the bad guy need stabbing?" Anyone in their own home will be presumed to have acted lawfully.
College Student Will Not Face Charges For Stabbing Intruder
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- Werz
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Re: College Student Will Not Face Charges For Stabbing Intru
"An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life."
-- Robert A. Heinlein, Beyond This Horizon
"Remember that protecting our gun rights still boils down to keeping a majority in the electorate, and that our daily activities can have the impact of being ambassadors for the gun culture ..."
-- BobK
Open carry is a First Amendment exercise.
-- Robert A. Heinlein, Beyond This Horizon
"Remember that protecting our gun rights still boils down to keeping a majority in the electorate, and that our daily activities can have the impact of being ambassadors for the gun culture ..."
-- BobK
Open carry is a First Amendment exercise.
- HancockCountyHAl
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Re: College Student Will Not Face Charges For Stabbing Intru
Wait a minute.
She had the opportunity to escape to safety and call the police, but she chose to hunt him down, stalking him from room to room until she found him. Then, she pursued the unarmed man and attempted to kill the fleeing indigent with a knife, similar to the kind hunters or butchers use to dismember their prey.
Why do I think of GZ?
How are these cases different?
She had the opportunity to escape to safety and call the police, but she chose to hunt him down, stalking him from room to room until she found him. Then, she pursued the unarmed man and attempted to kill the fleeing indigent with a knife, similar to the kind hunters or butchers use to dismember their prey.
Why do I think of GZ?
How are these cases different?
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Re: College Student Will Not Face Charges For Stabbing Intru
She had no duty to retreat in her own house. Even if she could, she ought to have retreated with means of defense since she didn't know where the BG was.
The major difference between this and Zimmerman is that she stopped the threat before she was physically injured. He took a beating first.
And where did you hear that she was using a "knife similar to the kind hunters or butchers use to dismember their prey"? The linked article wasn't so detailed. Do you also think that black rifles are more deadly than wooden stocked rifles?
The major difference between this and Zimmerman is that she stopped the threat before she was physically injured. He took a beating first.
And where did you hear that she was using a "knife similar to the kind hunters or butchers use to dismember their prey"? The linked article wasn't so detailed. Do you also think that black rifles are more deadly than wooden stocked rifles?
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Re: College Student Will Not Face Charges For Stabbing Intru
There are 3 parts of the lawful use of deadly force in self-defense: 1. You were not at fault for creating/escalating the situation, 2. You must have had a reasonable fear that you were about to be the victim of force sufficient to cause death or serious bodily harm, 3. You met your duty to retreat.
Yes Ohio has the Castle doctrine, but it isn't a free pass to kill someone in your home. It removes the duty to retreat and is a presumption of having acted in self-defense, but it's a rebuttable presumption. If the facts don't bear out "didn't cause" and "reasonable belief" then it's not lawful self defense under Ohio law.
It's no favor to people reading this thread to suggest that they can legally kill someone who broke into their home and is running away. Every real world situation is different and has nuances. There's no one-size-fits-all for every situation. Still, if the evidence bears out that a person who was illegally in your home was running away when you shot them in the back in their attempt to flee, you are more than likely going to jail, and more than likely will be convicted.
Yes Ohio has the Castle doctrine, but it isn't a free pass to kill someone in your home. It removes the duty to retreat and is a presumption of having acted in self-defense, but it's a rebuttable presumption. If the facts don't bear out "didn't cause" and "reasonable belief" then it's not lawful self defense under Ohio law.
It's no favor to people reading this thread to suggest that they can legally kill someone who broke into their home and is running away. Every real world situation is different and has nuances. There's no one-size-fits-all for every situation. Still, if the evidence bears out that a person who was illegally in your home was running away when you shot them in the back in their attempt to flee, you are more than likely going to jail, and more than likely will be convicted.
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Re: College Student Will Not Face Charges For Stabbing Intru
You aren't taking the article as gospel, are you? I'm sure you have seen media mistakes and bias in the past. I don't believe much of what they say.
All it said was "he got to the door". Which door? Front (exit) door? Bedroom door? Bathroom door? She also said something about finding him by a second floor bedroom.
Was she in fear of her life(jeopardy)? Yes. Did he have means to cause harm? Yes. Did he have intent to cause her harm? Quite possibly--he was on the second floor near a bedroom. She was close enough to stab him, which by all reasonable self-defense stuff I have read is way too close. We don't know how she came to be so close. Did he attempt to grab her? It wouldn't be the first article written without proper detail.
She meets the triad for use of force in self-defense, as shown by lack of charges filed on her.
Or would you have preferred she subject herself to a rape before she acted?
If it had been an ex-boyfriend after an argument, you would have a point. This was a stranger in her home. Apples/ oranges.
She did good.
All it said was "he got to the door". Which door? Front (exit) door? Bedroom door? Bathroom door? She also said something about finding him by a second floor bedroom.
Was she in fear of her life(jeopardy)? Yes. Did he have means to cause harm? Yes. Did he have intent to cause her harm? Quite possibly--he was on the second floor near a bedroom. She was close enough to stab him, which by all reasonable self-defense stuff I have read is way too close. We don't know how she came to be so close. Did he attempt to grab her? It wouldn't be the first article written without proper detail.
She meets the triad for use of force in self-defense, as shown by lack of charges filed on her.
Or would you have preferred she subject herself to a rape before she acted?
If it had been an ex-boyfriend after an argument, you would have a point. This was a stranger in her home. Apples/ oranges.
She did good.
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Re: College Student Will Not Face Charges For Stabbing Intru
"(I) started checking through the house with the knife in my hand and my friend on the phone," Rigel said. "I found him on the second floor bedroom."
Police identified the man Rigel found as Derek Miller.
"Just as he got the door open I stabbed him in the back," Rigel said. "I fell backwards and couldn't chase him, so that's when I called the police."
The above quote was copied from the article. I notice the article doesn't say what door the criminal got to. That means it could have been an interior door. I have responded to numerous burglaries in which criminals picked up objects in the house- most often kitchen knives- to carry with them as they were inside. In any case, the criminal got what he deserved. She did a great job.
Police identified the man Rigel found as Derek Miller.
"Just as he got the door open I stabbed him in the back," Rigel said. "I fell backwards and couldn't chase him, so that's when I called the police."
The above quote was copied from the article. I notice the article doesn't say what door the criminal got to. That means it could have been an interior door. I have responded to numerous burglaries in which criminals picked up objects in the house- most often kitchen knives- to carry with them as they were inside. In any case, the criminal got what he deserved. She did a great job.
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Re: College Student Will Not Face Charges For Stabbing Intru
I'm with the argument that she was in fear of imminent danger. A man running away at the moment doesn't mean that he will continue to do so. Maybe he was trying to gain enough ground to draw his weapon? Sure, he didn't have one, but she didn't know that when she stabbed him.
Still, just as LEOs are forced to take paid leave and undergo a mandatory investigation, I don't think it would be totally inappropriate to charge her. I can't imagine that there isn't some attorney somewhere who would take the case pro bono, and win.
Still, just as LEOs are forced to take paid leave and undergo a mandatory investigation, I don't think it would be totally inappropriate to charge her. I can't imagine that there isn't some attorney somewhere who would take the case pro bono, and win.
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Re: College Student Will Not Face Charges For Stabbing Intru
I'd say if the BG is still within contact range (knife range) he's an imminent threat and needs to be dealt with force even if he's heading out. Don't give him a chance to turn and fight.
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Re: College Student Will Not Face Charges For Stabbing Intru
Whatever for? Charged with what? She was in danger--within contact distance of a stranger in her own residence. She did nothing wrong.BorisTheSpider wrote:
Still, just as LEOs are forced to take paid leave and undergo a mandatory investigation, I don't think it would be totally inappropriate to charge her. I can't imagine that there isn't some attorney somewhere who would take the case pro bono, and win.
Why should she put her life on hold, maybe risk losing whatever job she has, risk getting suspended from school or bankrupt because she had the guts to defend herself?
It would have been inappropriate to charge her, and I'm glad the powers that be in that town recognized it.
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Re: College Student Will Not Face Charges For Stabbing Intru
Exactly. To the argument that he was "fleeing the scene" - well, though he did have his back to her and was going out "a" door, who knows how far out the door he was going? Perhaps just to the next room to regroup, grab that brass lamp and then turn and knock her down, rape her, then finish the job by smashing her skull in.Mustang380gal wrote:Someone breaks into an occupied home is an implied threat.
He deserves what he got, and if she managed to kill him, I'd be okay with that. If that was my daughter, I'd expect her to protect herself however she needed to.
Mike, I understand your point, but do you really consider this "vigilante justice"? Merriam-Webster defines vigilante as: a member of a volunteer committee organized to suppress and punish crime summarily (as when the processes of law are viewed as inadequate); broadly: a self-appointed doer of justice . I think it's a stretch to define the victim's actions as such. Do I think if the genders and weapons were changed would you be charged? Probably. No, not fair, but in the reverse scenario, the argument that YOU were no longer in danger would be a more reasonable assumption than a woman who was confronted by a much large male. Again, simply reversing the genders is not truly fair, as I have a neighbor lady who I truly think could kick my butt (as she is 1/3 my age and equal in weight). But that seeming unfairness doesn't make the victim in this case guilty.
I think he got exactly what he deserved and I hope the victim sleeps well at night knowing that she refused to be the "perfect victim" to the thug.
Last edited by dcludwig on Sun Jul 15, 2012 8:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: College Student Will Not Face Charges For Stabbing Intru
That sounds like a horrible waste of my tax dollars. Charge her just to vet it out? It still gets investigated, the reports are still taken etc...BorisTheSpider wrote: Still, just as LEOs are forced to take paid leave and undergo a mandatory investigation, I don't think it would be totally inappropriate to charge her. I can't imagine that there isn't some attorney somewhere who would take the case pro bono, and win.
Sure she might get an attorney to take the case for "the public good" but but what about just not going there to begin with?
What about the lost time from her? Lost time in her life - school, work, family etc in dealing with this? The stress of dealing with a life destroying potential conviction if the prosecutor happens get an anti self defense judge and jury?
I don't know, I have to ask Boris, are you simply arguing to argue here? This just seems like the statement of somebody intentionally trying to stir up a fight. If I am wrong I apologize but it sure sounds like it.
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- Werz
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Re: College Student Will Not Face Charges For Stabbing Intru
I agree. You don't charge someone with a serious crime solely for an ideological dog-and-pony show.jburtonpdx wrote:That sounds like a horrible waste of my tax dollars. Charge her just to vet it out? It still gets investigated, the reports are still taken etc...BorisTheSpider wrote: Still, just as LEOs are forced to take paid leave and undergo a mandatory investigation, I don't think it would be totally inappropriate to charge her. I can't imagine that there isn't some attorney somewhere who would take the case pro bono, and win.
"An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life."
-- Robert A. Heinlein, Beyond This Horizon
"Remember that protecting our gun rights still boils down to keeping a majority in the electorate, and that our daily activities can have the impact of being ambassadors for the gun culture ..."
-- BobK
Open carry is a First Amendment exercise.
-- Robert A. Heinlein, Beyond This Horizon
"Remember that protecting our gun rights still boils down to keeping a majority in the electorate, and that our daily activities can have the impact of being ambassadors for the gun culture ..."
-- BobK
Open carry is a First Amendment exercise.
- HancockCountyHAl
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Re: College Student Will Not Face Charges For Stabbing Intru
Yes of course. The style of rifle prefered by terrorists and drug dealers. No legitimate sporting value. Capable of firing 800 shots with one pull of the trigger.Mustang380gal wrote:And where did you hear that she was using a "knife similar to the kind hunters or butchers use to dismember their prey"? The linked article wasn't so detailed. Do you also think that black rifles are more deadly than wooden stocked rifles?
Mustang380, you missed my attempted irony of how the media picks winners and losers, and shape s public opinion.
Next time I'll add a
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Re: College Student Will Not Face Charges For Stabbing Intru
For clarity's sake, you shouldn't charge someone with a serious crime solely for an ideological dog-and-pony show. It still happens all the time, and I maintain that if she had been a he, it would have happened.Werz wrote:I agree. You don't charge someone with a serious crime solely for an ideological dog-and-pony show.jburtonpdx wrote:That sounds like a horrible waste of my tax dollars. Charge her just to vet it out? It still gets investigated, the reports are still taken etc...BorisTheSpider wrote: Still, just as LEOs are forced to take paid leave and undergo a mandatory investigation, I don't think it would be totally inappropriate to charge her. I can't imagine that there isn't some attorney somewhere who would take the case pro bono, and win.
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Re: College Student Will Not Face Charges For Stabbing Intru
I know it's probably not how the law sees it, but I don't feel she was in the wrong.dynamike wrote:Really? Is he still a threat even though he is running away?MyWifeSaidYes wrote:No. Yes.
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