Conceal-carry permit holder arrested

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deanimator
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Re: Conceal-carry permit holder arrested

Post by deanimator »

I hold police to the law. I can do no less for somebody with a CHL.

It was dumb and he's going to pay for it.
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Re: Conceal-carry permit holder arrested

Post by parbreaker »

deanimator wrote:I hold police to the law. I can do no less for somebody with a CHL.

It was dumb and he's going to pay for it.

I agree, personally. CHL or not, common sense should tell you to keep your hands off of firearms during a traffic stop.
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Re: Conceal-carry permit holder arrested

Post by bignflnut »

He didn't threaten the LEO. He made no moves towards threatening the LEO.
The law is a bad one, but we all accept it due to political compromise and LEO nervousness.
How dare the people have the right to bear arms while we attempt to tax them on the roads.
What does bear arms mean, again? Keep em all you want, but you're a criminal if you bear them.
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Re: Conceal-carry permit holder arrested

Post by Beskar'gam »

bignflnut wrote:He didn't threaten the LEO. He made no moves towards threatening the LEO.
True...but what would the headline read if the cop had been a bit jumpier and shot the guy. "CHL Holder Dies in Confrontation With Police?"
bignflnut wrote:The law is a bad one, but we all accept it due to political compromise and LEO nervousness.
Not bad, but maybe just poorly written. The general public as a whole is just starting to get used to the idea of armed citizens - yes we can smile and be cheerful while OCing, be good citizens and examples while OC- or CC-ing, but in the grand scheme - while millions of Americans are gun owners, most of those do not take them outside the house, much less carry them with them.

In general, not a bad law, if your gun clears leather for any reason, it better be a darn good one. Random cop on the street has absolutely no idea who's door he's walking up to. He knows who the car is registered to from the plate, but until you hand over your ID - he has no idea if you are the car owner and upstanding citizen or the dangerous psychopath who murdered and ate the car owner
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Re: Conceal-carry permit holder arrested

Post by bignflnut »

Beskar'gam wrote:True...but what would the headline read if the cop had been a bit jumpier and shot the guy. "CHL Holder Dies in Confrontation With Police?"
let's stick with the facts before we invent new scenarios.
bignflnut wrote:The law is a bad one, but we all accept it due to political compromise and LEO nervousness.
Beskar'gam wrote:Random cop on the street has absolutely no idea who's door he's walking up to. He knows who the car is registered to from the plate, but until you hand over your ID - he has no idea if you are the car owner and upstanding citizen or the dangerous psychopath who murdered and ate the car owner
So you're confirming and supporting LEO nervousness as the basis of law?
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Re: Conceal-carry permit holder arrested

Post by carmen fovozzo »

Beskar'gam wrote:
big walnut wrote:He didn't threaten the LEO. He made no moves towards threatening the LEO.
True...but what would the headline read if the cop had been a bit jumpier and shot the guy. "CHL Holder Dies in Confrontation With Police?"
big nfl nut wrote:The law is a bad one, but we all accept it due to political compromise and LEO nervousness.
Not bad, but maybe just poorly written. The general public as a whole is just starting to get used to the idea of armed citizens - yes we can smile and be cheerful while USing, be good citizens and examples while OC- or CC'ing, but in the grand scheme - while millions of Americans are gun owners, most of those do not take them outside the house, much less carry them with them.

In general, not a bad law, if your gun clears leather for any reason, it better be a darn good one. Random cop on the street has absolutely no idea who's door he's walking up to. He knows who the car is registered to from the plate, but until you hand over your ID - he has no idea if you are the car owner and upstanding citizen or the dangerous psychopath who murdered and ate the car owner

There are for a fact more dangerous occupations.....LEOS know what can happen to them when they are on duty....They train like any other job, it just so happens that there job could mean life or death to them or us......
Don't make it hard on me as a LAC if I am doing nothing wrong....
To answer your question if the LEO would of shot the driver, well driver had his gun on his lap and the LEO saw it...Stupid gets you killed some times...
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Re: Conceal-carry permit holder arrested

Post by Beskar'gam »

bignflnut wrote:Beskar'gam wrote:
Random cop on the street has absolutely no idea who's door he's walking up to. He knows who the car is registered to from the plate, but until you hand over your ID - he has no idea if you are the car owner and upstanding citizen or the dangerous psychopath who murdered and ate the car owner


So you're confirming and supporting LEO nervousness as the basis of law?
No, am hypothesizing that it could be a possible reason for the law being written the way that it is. Nor am I "supporting" nervousness, I am expressing an understanding of the hazards of the job - as to this case, how was he to know that the guy he just pulled over who is sitting with a loaded firearm in his lap is one of the good guys.
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Re: Conceal-carry permit holder arrested

Post by Tourist »

Beskar'gam wrote:
bignflnut wrote:Beskar'gam wrote:
Random cop on the street has absolutely no idea who's door he's walking up to. He knows who the car is registered to from the plate, but until you hand over your ID - he has no idea if you are the car owner and upstanding citizen or the dangerous psychopath who murdered and ate the car owner


So you're confirming and supporting LEO nervousness as the basis of law?
No, am hypothesizing that it could be a possible reason for the law being written the way that it is. Nor am I "supporting" nervousness, I am expressing an understanding of the hazards of the job - as to this case, how was he to know that the guy he just pulled over who is sitting with a loaded firearm in his lap is one of the good guys.
Well, he might have run the plate and known that it was probably a CHL holder. :wink: I can understand a certain amount of "nervousness", but an officer should always treat all stops the same. :idea: After all, if there is a criminal intent on murdering an officer, all the stupid notification laws in the world will not make a difference. Remember in the real world most States do not have notification requirements, and the officers survive just fine. The notification was put in as just another poison pill; nobody really thought it made any difference. Remember there will be blood in the streets if we remove any of the stupid restrictions….oh wait a minute that never happens! :twisted:
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Re: Conceal-carry permit holder arrested

Post by bignflnut »

Beskar'gam wrote: I am expressing an understanding of the hazards of the job - as to this case, how was he to know that the guy he just pulled over who is sitting with a loaded firearm in his lap is one of the good guys.
Are you suggesting that the current plating of vehicles and lightning quick access to that database is not adequate to perform the duties? Perhaps you would like to give the officers armor or defensive weapons to mitigate the risks? Bank tellers don't have such things and they're the first point of contact to a much more logical target. At what point do we stop capitulating to the inherent risks of a job in order to perform the duties of the job?

How do you know he's one of the good guys? He's compliant? He's not pointing the weapon at you? He's got his hands in plain view? He's assumed the posture of surrender, but he's a threat? You're not making the case that the LEO felt threatened, and therefore was justified in the arrest, right?

This is about being the only gun in the room and when that's not the case, an arrest must be made. We justifiably are outraged at this in all other instances, but here, not so much?
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Re: Conceal-carry permit holder arrested

Post by Beskar'gam »

bignflnut wrote:Are you suggesting that the current plating of vehicles and lightning quick access to that database is not adequate to perform the duties? Perhaps you would like to give the officers armor or defensive weapons to mitigate the risks? Bank tellers don't have such things and they're the first point of contact to a much more logical target. At what point do we stop capitulating to the inherent risks of a job in order to perform the duties of the job?
Not at all, I'm saying that, under the current law it is not on the officer to do so, the responsibility lies with the carrier.

The "capitulation," in this case is not necessarily unfounded. If it helps, look at it as an extension of keeping your booger hook off the bang switch: Rule #5 - "Don't play with your pistol in front of a cop"
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Re: Conceal-carry permit holder arrested

Post by bignflnut »

Beskar'gam wrote: If it helps, look at it as an extension of keeping your booger hook off the bang switch: Rule #5 - "Don't play with your pistol in front of a cop"
(Did someone say his finger was near the trigger?)
That's right, bear arms, unless a cop is around. Bad law based on political compromise capitulating to LEO nervousness.
“It’s not that we don’t have enough scoundrels to curse; it’s that we don’t have enough good men to curse them.”–G.K. Chesterton-Illustrated London News, 3-14-1908

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"Avarice, ambition, revenge and licentiousness would break the strongest cords of our Constitution, as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." John Adams to Mass Militia 10-11-1798
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Re: Conceal-carry permit holder arrested

Post by Beskar'gam »

bignflnut wrote:(Did someone say his finger was near the trigger?)
Extension of.

Bear 'em all you want, but under current law...well, reread the OP if you like, because that's what happens, under the current law.

I do not intend to be the test case to make it OK to handle a loaded weapon in front of an LEO and doing so is a pretty good way to get shot. I also do not plan to be the guy to get shot.

I stand by my statement, while not worded as well as it possibly could be - it is not a bad law - but good or bad, at the moment it is the law
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Re: Conceal-carry permit holder arrested

Post by Rhino »

Beskar'gam wrote:Did he deserve to be arrested? Probably not.
In the eyes of Dayton PD, all CHL holders deserve to be arrested.

You'll get used to bignflnut assigning meaning to your statements that you never intended. Or maybe you won't, but he'll be here nevertheless. If nothing else, he may keep you sharp when deciding what to type in your posts sometimes, just so you can avoid going in endless circles with him. He means well though. That isn't always obvious at first.
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Re: Conceal-carry permit holder arrested

Post by Beskar'gam »

Rhino wrote:
Beskar'gam wrote:Did he deserve to be arrested? Probably not.
In the eyes of Dayton PD, all CHL holders deserve to be arrested.

You'll get used to bignflnut assigning meaning to your statements that you never intended. Or maybe you won't, but he'll be here nevertheless. If nothing else, he may keep you sharp when deciding what to type in your posts sometimes, just so you can avoid going in endless circles with him. He means well though. That isn't always obvious at first.
Darn, hook line and sinker, eh?

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Re: Conceal-carry permit holder arrested

Post by SigMan »

Beskar'gam wrote:if your gun clears leather for any reason, it better be a darn good one.
Exactly! This is why I live by three rules for my weapon clearing leather.

1. Cleaning
2. Target Practice
3. Defending my life or the life of another human being.

If I’m not at home and don't have my cleaning kit out, or I’m not at the range, and my firearm clears leather it's a bad day for myself and another person/persons. Grant it, unless a Leo asks me for it or removes it from my person. I don't even let friends see it unholstered if they ask. I guess I’m just anal about fondling my weapon needlessly.

Hopefully the guy learns a lesson over it.
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