Lima man cites Castle Doctrine in shooting

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JediSkipdogg
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Re: Lima man cites Castle Doctrine in shooting

Post by JediSkipdogg »

Werz wrote:
MrKitty wrote:Seriously? Just words? "Hand over the money or I'm going to kill you" would be just words from a perp to a victim - still not actionable? What about the words "I have a bomb"? Steffan is an idiot. ~.~
"Words alone ..." Read closely. The quote from Steffan is an exact quote from the self-defense jury instruction:
Words alone do not justify the use of deadly force. Resort to such force is not justified by abusive language, verbal threats, or other words, no matter how provocative. *** You must consider the conduct of (the assailant) and decide whether his acts and words caused the defendant reasonably and honestly to believe that he was about to be killed or receive great bodily harm.
Context is everything.
Don't say that or I'm going to kill you right now.



Yup, words alone don't mean anything. At least I hope Werz doens't think it's possible for me to do it right now. :lol: It's the action taken with those words. If I was irate and standing next to him lunging after him, then maybe.
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Re: Lima man cites Castle Doctrine in shooting

Post by Tweed Ring »

The three (3) components of jeopardy are as follows:

1.) Opportunity

2.) Means

3.) Intent

From the little I have gleaned from this thread, as well as from the
Toledo Blade, I believe those components were present in the instant act. Ergo, I believe the shooter may very well have been justified in his self-defense actions, to protect his children and himself.
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Werz
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Re: Lima man cites Castle Doctrine in shooting

Post by Werz »

JediSkipdogg wrote:Don't say that or I'm going to kill you right now.

Yup, words alone don't mean anything. At least I hope Werz doens't think it's possible for me to do it right now. :lol: It's the action taken with those words. If I was irate and standing next to him lunging after him, then maybe.
Back in the heyday of Usenet newsgroups, the good newsreaders had filters which would exclude posts from people whose writings you didn't wish to read. Those filters were known as "killfiles."

I was really disappointed to learn that it didn't actually kill those people.
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Re: Lima man cites Castle Doctrine in shooting

Post by JediSkipdogg »

Werz wrote:
JediSkipdogg wrote:Don't say that or I'm going to kill you right now.

Yup, words alone don't mean anything. At least I hope Werz doens't think it's possible for me to do it right now. :lol: It's the action taken with those words. If I was irate and standing next to him lunging after him, then maybe.
Back in the heyday of Usenet newsgroups, the good newsreaders had filters which would exclude posts from people whose writings you didn't wish to read. Those filters were known as "killfiles."

I was really disappointed to learn that it didn't actually kill those people.
Your computer will self destruct in 5 seconds.
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Re: Lima man cites Castle Doctrine in shooting

Post by catfish86 »

From my research on this one, it appears the jury did their job. The prosecutor's conduct is borderline unethical.
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Re: Lima man cites Castle Doctrine in shooting

Post by JediSkipdogg »

catfish86 wrote:The prosecutor's conduct is borderline unethical.
There seems to be more and more of those popping up. I believe it's they are trying to find the next big case and get a huge name from it. I truely believe that is what Rachel Hutzel did. She won the Ryan Widmer trials and then used it to help her become a court of appeals judge. I've seen a few other major cases go that way where the prosecutors then become something bigger. Sad world we live in when they get elected to a higher position.
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Re: Lima man cites Castle Doctrine in shooting

Post by gregh »

Actually Allen county is very lucky to have an excellent Prosecutor who is pro second amendment and he has no ambition beyond the Prosecutors office. I understand that is a rare thing these days so it's easy to just bash them for everything. A little research will reveal that Allen County doesn't have many cases going to trial that the prosecutors don't win, that means they aren't pressing bogus charges against people. Now the city of Lima, that may be another story.
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Re: Lima man cites Castle Doctrine in shooting

Post by djthomas »

bignflnut wrote:Does anyone think that if they sent a threatening letter or video recording to Steffan, that all would be well? (that would truly just be words, no?)
I would expect the sender to get hit with a menacing charge but that wouldn't justify the recipient using deadly force at that time. I haven't researched this case much, does anybody know if the instigator (Henry) was charged with menacing? At the very least the prosecutor has a duty to pursue those charges independent of whether or not they charged the guy who shot him. Even more so now that the jury has said that the shooter was within his rights to have reacted as he did.
gregh wrote:Actually Allen county is very lucky to have an excellent Prosecutor who is pro second amendment and he has no ambition beyond the Prosecutors office. I understand that is a rare thing these days so it's easy to just bash them for everything. A little research will reveal that Allen County doesn't have many cases going to trial that the prosecutors don't win, that means they aren't pressing bogus charges against people. Now the city of Lima, that may be another story.
But at the end of the day felony charges from Lima city are bound over to Allen County. Notwithstanding the work of the city prosecutor it's now up to the county prosecutor to decide if and how to proceed with charges. I realize we only know what the news has told us so far but from where I sit the county prosecutor should have stamped a Kentucky Demurrer on it and sent it back to Lima with a note asking when Henry will be bound over on Agg. Menacing. If I lived in Allen County I'd be asking this excellent prosecutor "What gives?"
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Re: Lima man cites Castle Doctrine in shooting

Post by Werz »

djthomas wrote:If I lived in Allen County I'd be asking this excellent prosecutor "What gives?"
And what would your reponse be if he said the police department was chomping at the bit for an indictment?
"An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life."
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"Remember that protecting our gun rights still boils down to keeping a majority in the electorate, and that our daily activities can have the impact of being ambassadors for the gun culture ..."
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Re: Lima man cites Castle Doctrine in shooting

Post by djthomas »

Werz wrote:And what would your reponse be if he said the police department was chomping at the bit for an indictment?
I'd say "boy that worked out well for them considering the loss is in your column, not theirs. Better bone up on criminal procedure and grow a pair." It's the cops who need to suck up to the prosecutor not the other way around. Last I checked the county prosecutor does not report to a lowly municipal police department. I guess the question to him would be whose fault is it? Did the police do a shoddy job or are his assistant prosecutors incompetent? Voting members of the public are curious to know.

One prosecutor I work with is unrelenting towards us because she knows that's how the jury will be. She also boasts a conviction rate on par with the feds. She also appreciates what happens to innocent people when they get run through the system just to appease a few people looking to make a pinch. One time I watched her tell a Captain where his case could go. At the end of her tirade all he could do was say "yes ma'am, we'll go back and make it better..."
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Re: Lima man cites Castle Doctrine in shooting

Post by Werz »

djthomas wrote:One prosecutor I work with is unrelenting towards us because she knows that's how the jury will be. She also boasts a conviction rate on par with the feds. She also appreciates what happens to innocent people when they get run through the system just to appease a few people looking to make a pinch. One time I watched her tell a Captain where his case could go. At the end of her tirade all he could do was say "yes ma'am, we'll go back and make it better..."
And that is exactly how a prosecutor should be. Still, cops can push pretty hard to ramrod a questionable case through the grand jury. Once they get an indictment, they figure they can throw the prosecutor under the bus if the case goes south after that. It takes a prosecutor with some experience to recognize when that's happening.

And anytime somebody gets shot, regardless of the circumstances, there's a tendency for that to happen.
"An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life."
-- Robert A. Heinlein, Beyond This Horizon
"Remember that protecting our gun rights still boils down to keeping a majority in the electorate, and that our daily activities can have the impact of being ambassadors for the gun culture ..."
-- BobK
Open carry is a First Amendment exercise.
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Re: Lima man cites Castle Doctrine in shooting

Post by djthomas »

Werz wrote:Once they get an indictment, they figure they can throw the prosecutor under the bus if the case goes south after that. It takes a prosecutor with some experience to recognize when that's happening.

And anytime somebody gets shot, regardless of the circumstances, there's a tendency for that to happen.
That's precisely the issue. At the end of the day it's the prosecutor that looks incompetent, not the nameless cops who pushed the case. Arguably the perception is accurate though because a competent prosecutor won't write wood. The only saving grace I can see in this case will be for them to promptly file charges against Harris now that a court has found that he's not the victim in this matter.
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