Study claims Tasers are lethal weapons
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- djthomas
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Re: Study claims Tasers are lethal weapons
Tweed you might find this little article from 2000 discussing NYPD switching away from the PR-24 interesting. The reasons cited include difficulty mastering the techniques and maintaining proficiency. Like any other kind of weapons or defense training officers were finding it hard to recall the finer points during stressful situations
It's also interesting to note that the baton remained authorized for those officers that had been trained on it. That could explain why 12 years later we've got a white shirt whipping one around.
It's also interesting to note that the baton remained authorized for those officers that had been trained on it. That could explain why 12 years later we've got a white shirt whipping one around.
- JediSkipdogg
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Re: Study claims Tasers are lethal weapons
Do they still carry guns? Firearms are difficult to master and maintaining proficiency. Constant training on both makes one very skilled when needing to use it. No training adds liability and danger in the use of it.djthomas wrote:Tweed you might find this little article from 2000 discussing NYPD switching away from the PR-24 interesting. The reasons cited include difficulty mastering the techniques and maintaining proficiency. Like any other kind of weapons or defense training officers were finding it hard to recall the finer points during stressful situations
It's also interesting to note that the baton remained authorized for those officers that had been trained on it. That could explain why 12 years later we've got a white shirt whipping one around.
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Re: Study claims Tasers are lethal weapons
I saw the degeneration of skills in a number of rectification classes I taught over the years. Like any protective course of study, lack of practice is evident in application of the various techniques. I used to practice the various techniques at least an hour per week. I'm sure most of my students, even the instructors, were not to inclined.
My course of study was cut from 12 hours to 8 hours, eliminating the restraining techniques, which are now considered advanced techniques, and are taught in an additional 4 hour block. Like too many training components, the bottom line is typically money, and/or lack thereof.
As an aside, I once asked an International Baton Instructor, also an attorney, who helped defend Stacey Koon, why the repeated application of baton techniques on Motorist-Rodney King had limited or no effect. She advised that the LAPD had revised the basic baton course to eliminate restraining techniques, and only trained the application of "sharp, stinging blows." Having been the recipient of a myriad of sharp, stinging blows in training scenarios over the years, I can attest they did not disable me and only made me angry.
Thank you for the referral to the article.
I keep a baton near the door, and one near the car. I must be old-school, as I have no desire to learn to defend myself with electricity.
My course of study was cut from 12 hours to 8 hours, eliminating the restraining techniques, which are now considered advanced techniques, and are taught in an additional 4 hour block. Like too many training components, the bottom line is typically money, and/or lack thereof.
As an aside, I once asked an International Baton Instructor, also an attorney, who helped defend Stacey Koon, why the repeated application of baton techniques on Motorist-Rodney King had limited or no effect. She advised that the LAPD had revised the basic baton course to eliminate restraining techniques, and only trained the application of "sharp, stinging blows." Having been the recipient of a myriad of sharp, stinging blows in training scenarios over the years, I can attest they did not disable me and only made me angry.
Thank you for the referral to the article.
I keep a baton near the door, and one near the car. I must be old-school, as I have no desire to learn to defend myself with electricity.
- djthomas
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Re: Study claims Tasers are lethal weapons
Thankfully pointing a gun at a target and pulling the trigger can be reduced to muscle memory. Sure the shot won't be perfect but it'll probably be good enough. OTOH when you're doing fancy baton tricks you're relying on fine motor skills to keep that baton from flying three blocks away.JediSkipdogg wrote:Do they still carry guns? Firearms are difficult to master and maintaining proficiency. Constant training on both makes one very skilled when needing to use it. No training adds liability and danger in the use of it.
My favorite baton trick is probably the deploying strike. With a good stance and hand positioning it's possible to hold the baton more or less concealed. When the bad guy reels back to throw a punch you come up to block while flicking your wrist which causes the baton to deploy. Depending on where the guy is in his swing he's got a very good chance of breaking his hand, wrist or arm as it gets deflected away. You can then grab the other end of the baton and check him into the wall. It's come in handy in a few bar disturbances. One reason I like it is because I can have a weapon in hand without escalating the situation because nobody sees it. It just looks like I'm in an interview stance with my hands together.
I really wish we had the option of carrying a PR-24. One of the sergeants keeps his old one in the locker and his technique is amazing. He can get it spinning to the point that you hear it humming but can't see it. That impact's gotta hurt! Maybe that's why only they only allow straight baton now.
I realize we're drifting off topic here so I'll return to our regularly scheduled discussion about Tasers.
- synack2
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Re: Study claims Tasers are lethal weapons
I guess I see both sides of it.
I kind of like the old days where a LEO had to decide weather to seriously injure you or kill you vs stun you. Non-Lethal and Less-Lethal force when used inappropriately puts us on a less level playing field and give the police more power to make you comply without the consequences of killing you. Not that I ever intend to not comply, but still it is just a matter of empowerment and mutual respect I think.
That being said there are certainly a lot of people alive because the police were able to Taze them and didn't have to shoot them.
I kind of like the old days where a LEO had to decide weather to seriously injure you or kill you vs stun you. Non-Lethal and Less-Lethal force when used inappropriately puts us on a less level playing field and give the police more power to make you comply without the consequences of killing you. Not that I ever intend to not comply, but still it is just a matter of empowerment and mutual respect I think.
That being said there are certainly a lot of people alive because the police were able to Taze them and didn't have to shoot them.
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Re: Study claims Tasers are lethal weapons
Tasers are perfectly fine, and in every death there has been some other mitigating circumstance, like drugs or a health problem. Those problems won't go away if you do away with tasers. The real issue here is we have a new tool that uses electricity, too many cops are too quick to go to the new fun tool, and the media loves to jump on every new technology and try to claim it's a lethal weapon.
Well, check this out: http://www.aclu-sc.org/attach/p/Pepper_ ... stions.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Summary: In 1995 the ACLU released a "study" claiming OC spray was lethal and should be severely restricted and/or banned. Seriously, you could take that 1995 report, do a search and replace, change OC Spray to Taser, and just re-release it in it's new form.
Well, check this out: http://www.aclu-sc.org/attach/p/Pepper_ ... stions.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Summary: In 1995 the ACLU released a "study" claiming OC spray was lethal and should be severely restricted and/or banned. Seriously, you could take that 1995 report, do a search and replace, change OC Spray to Taser, and just re-release it in it's new form.
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- djthomas
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Re: Study claims Tasers are lethal weapons
Bingo. Take a guy hopped up on drugs with a bad heart and have him get into a physical altercation with a couple of fit officers. There's a chance that he'll suffer a heart attack during the process. And then what? We need to tell our officers to stop maintaining themselves in top physical shape?Vex wrote:Tasers are perfectly fine, and in every death there has been some other mitigating circumstance, like drugs or a health problem. Those problems won't go away if you do away with tasers.
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Re: Study claims Tasers are lethal weapons
From some LEO I've seen lately that won't be a problem!djthomas wrote: And then what? We need to tell our officers to stop maintaining themselves in top physical shape?
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Re: Study claims Tasers are lethal weapons
You got that right cruiser i've seen some officer's that are morbid obiese and could not run if ther life's depended on it,... let alone chase and catch a bad guy. No offence to the officer's on this forum i'am sure you are all in great shape.Cruiser wrote:From some LEO I've seen lately that won't be a problem!djthomas wrote: And then what? We need to tell our officers to stop maintaining themselves in top physical shape?
Last edited by steves 50de on Sun May 06, 2012 11:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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- djthomas
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Re: Study claims Tasers are lethal weapons
Some take the old slogan "You can't outrun a Motorola" to heart!steves 50de wrote:You got that right cruise i've seen some officer's that are morbid obiese and could not run if ther life's depended on it,... let alone chase and catch a bad guy. No offence to the officer's on this forum i'am sure you are all in great shape.
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Re: Study claims Tasers are lethal weapons
In every case in which I am aware, criminals who died after being tased had what would probably be lethal levels of cocaine or methamphetamine in their blood.
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- JediSkipdogg
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Re: Study claims Tasers are lethal weapons
Here's the question though...and I have my personal opinion and my constitutional opinion....Thug Hunter wrote:In every case in which I am aware, criminals who died after being tased had what would probably be lethal levels of cocaine or methamphetamine in their blood.
Was the crime they were committing one they should have been killed for committing? If the device is known to be lethal, then it should only be used when a firearm can be used.
Cincinnati PD just announced today they are changing their taser usage policy due to this new information.
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Re: Study claims Tasers are lethal weapons
But that's just it, the device isn't "known" to be lethal, this is simply fear-mongering on behalf of the ACLU, et al in preparation to sue police departments and fill their coffers. One person dying out of 7000 isn't lethal, it's simply a matter of circumstance. Someone with cocaine in their system acting like a fool is the exception, not the rule.JediSkipdogg wrote:Was the crime they were committing one they should have been killed for committing? If the device is known to be lethal, then it should only be used when a firearm can be used.Thug Hunter wrote:In every case in which I am aware, criminals who died after being tased had what would probably be lethal levels of cocaine or methamphetamine in their blood.
If one person out of five dies after being tased, I'd agree it's a lethal device, but it's nowhere near that close. Taser advertises usage of the device has prevented the need for lethal force in 5.4% of the cases. With an estimated 2 million incidents of taser usage, that's over 150,000 people alive today because the taser ended the situation before a firearm was needed. Amnesty international claims 288 deaths due to taser usage since June 2001. Just doing some quick math here... 150,000 > 288.
You basically have a 0.00015% chance of being killed by a taser (7000:1), and that's ONLY if you're doing something to be tased in the first place! The average citizen's risk of being killed by a taser is nearly 12,000,000 to 1. In comparison, your risk of being killed by lightning is 2,300,000 to 1. Your risk of drowning in a bath tub is 685,000 to 1.
Cocaine makes you act like a fool and raises your blood pressure. Acting like a fool gets the cops called on you. Acting like a fool to the cops can get you tased. Getting tased while your BP is through the roof can be lethal. The solution is don't do cocaine.
Here is a study from Wake Forest about the lethal potential of a taser: http://phys.org/news111080086.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Summary: Out of 1000 cases of taser deployments, three cases required treatment at a hospital, and none of those cases resulted in death.
Statistically, being tased is safer than playing high school sports.
Last edited by Vex on Fri May 11, 2012 1:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Study claims Tasers are lethal weapons
Tasers save many more lives of criminals than they will ever take. A lot of officers, including me, have been involved in incidents in which a taser was used, which would have required us to shoot the criminal otherwise.
Additionally, in every department in which I am aware, stats show that injuries (meaning actual wounds needing medical attention) to both criminals and officers dropped after tasers were issued.
Many thousands of cops have been tasered in training and precisely zero have been killed. The difference between live cops in training and dead criminals on the street is not the taser-- it is the deadly level of intoxication.
Get rid of the taser, and uses of punches, baton strikes, and firearms will go up.
Additionally, in every department in which I am aware, stats show that injuries (meaning actual wounds needing medical attention) to both criminals and officers dropped after tasers were issued.
Many thousands of cops have been tasered in training and precisely zero have been killed. The difference between live cops in training and dead criminals on the street is not the taser-- it is the deadly level of intoxication.
Get rid of the taser, and uses of punches, baton strikes, and firearms will go up.
"Luckily, I keep my feathers numbered, for just such an emergency."- Foghorn Leghorn
"You can't arrest somebody for that. The most you can do is mace him and let him get away."- Thug Hunter
"You can't arrest somebody for that. The most you can do is mace him and let him get away."- Thug Hunter
- djthomas
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Re: Study claims Tasers are lethal weapons
Ah yes Amnesty international. They also like to claim that Tasers are torture devices and should be banned for that reason alone. They completely ignore the fact that anything can be a torture device if misused. I've got a three foot section of garden hose in my garage. My intent is to use it repair my other hoses as needed. But the use of rubber-hose torture by bastions of freedom like Cuba and Vietnam is well documented. I guess I shouldn't be allowed to own garden hose then.
Vex has it exactly right. All of these groups are just setting the stage for future lawsuits when their "findings" can be introduced as evidence. It's the old if you repeat a lie often enough people start to believe it thing. Thankfully I'm not aware of any of their studies passing scientific muster and being accepted as evidence ... yet.
They're pretty good at playing both sides though. If a bad guy or even an animal gets shot they'll be the first to whine that the officers should have tried something else like a Taser before indiscriminately blasting the alleged victim.
Vex has it exactly right. All of these groups are just setting the stage for future lawsuits when their "findings" can be introduced as evidence. It's the old if you repeat a lie often enough people start to believe it thing. Thankfully I'm not aware of any of their studies passing scientific muster and being accepted as evidence ... yet.
They're pretty good at playing both sides though. If a bad guy or even an animal gets shot they'll be the first to whine that the officers should have tried something else like a Taser before indiscriminately blasting the alleged victim.