Once again gun laws don't help. (CA shooting)

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Re: Once again gun laws don't help. (CA shooting)

Post by bignflnut »

One of the main objections to FIX NICS was the expansion into mental health issues like PTSD.
More and more will not seek treatment in order to keep a clean database entry on the books. The stigma catfish86 references will further keep people from treatment.

With a better monetary system that didn't inflate constantly, keeping people in poverty and encouraging government assistance, people would be a bit calmer.
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Re: Once again gun laws don't help. (CA shooting)

Post by M-Quigley »

This link is an explanation from the shooter as to why he did it (as if the "why" matters to a shooting victim ?)

The thing that is almost as insane as the mass murderer is that he had the time to post on instragram without any concern of getting shot. :(

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nat ... 958013002/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Once again gun laws don't help. (CA shooting)

Post by AlanM »

M-Quigley wrote:This link is an explanation from the shooter as to why he did it (as if the "why" matters to a shooting victim ?)

The thing that is almost as insane as the mass murderer is that he had the time to post on instragram without any concern of getting shot. :(

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nat ... 958013002/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
So, basically, he was suicidal and flat didn't care it he took a bunch of innocents with him.
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Re: Once again gun laws don't help. (CA shooting)

Post by MacDonald »

The handgun was acquired legally in one of the most restrictive states in the country. That will merely serve as additional fodder for Dems to call for the restriction of ALL guns as "a common sense restriction." They will start saying that the laws in place are not working and that is sufficient evidence that all firearms must be eliminated. That will become the periodic drumbeat and incessant chant that will next rise.
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Re: Once again gun laws don't help. (CA shooting)

Post by qmti »

MacDonald wrote:The handgun was acquired legally in one of the most restrictive states in the country. That will merely serve as additional fodder for Dems to call for the restriction of ALL guns as "a common sense restriction." They will start saying that the laws in place are not working and that is sufficient evidence that all firearms must be eliminated. That will become the periodic drumbeat and incessant chant that will next rise.
Unfortunately, that is a very logical statement. Also, the anti-gun side will say " if Australia did it why can't we".
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Re: Once again gun laws don't help. (CA shooting)

Post by Javelin Man »

That's why I ask anti-gunners what they're going to do when "universal background checks", mandatory waiting periods, smaller magazines, one gun per month, assault gun ban, and other restrictions don't work. Those assaults on our rights don't stop or even slow down mass shootings and other murders. It's time they have to show their hand. They don't have to play it, just show the cards.
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Re: Once again gun laws don't help. (CA shooting)

Post by M-Quigley »

AlanM wrote:
M-Quigley wrote:This link is an explanation from the shooter as to why he did it (as if the "why" matters to a shooting victim ?)

The thing that is almost as insane as the mass murderer is that he had the time to post on instragram without any concern of getting shot. :(

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nat ... 958013002/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
So, basically, he was suicidal and flat didn't care it he took a bunch of innocents with him.
He was suicidal and did care about wanting to take a bunch of innocents with him. If suicide was the primary goal he could've attacked a different location (one where he would be facing armed resistance) and his goal would've been achieved quicker.
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Re: Once again gun laws don't help. (CA shooting)

Post by WestonDon »

qmti wrote:
MacDonald wrote:The handgun was acquired legally in one of the most restrictive states in the country. That will merely serve as additional fodder for Dems to call for the restriction of ALL guns as "a common sense restriction." They will start saying that the laws in place are not working and that is sufficient evidence that all firearms must be eliminated. That will become the periodic drumbeat and incessant chant that will next rise.
Unfortunately, that is a very logical statement. Also, the anti-gun side will say " if Australia did it why can't we".
And then they wonder why we oppose "universal background checks" and registration.
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Re: Once again gun laws don't help. (CA shooting)

Post by catfish86 »

Whenever I get into it over a gun shooting responding to a "killer" gun control meme, I find it useful to 1) avoid insulting a person (ad hominem or attacking the man is text book admission your argument sucks and you have lost) and 2) ask them, OK, what new law do you propose and how would it have prevented this. I usually get a lot of ad hominem attacks in response (to which it is useful to request we refrain from insults and stick to the discussion). In this case, I responded to a meme with the mother saying she didn't want thoughts and prayers she wanted gun control.. After I dodged the insults, the lead person said "mental health checks". I pointed out that in following the law passed after Elliot Rogers killing spree (therapist sent cops to collect him shortly before and the deputies figured he seemed OK to them), the police were called on this shooter and a mental health team was brought in to assess him. They declared him OK. So a very personal mental health check was done here and failed. I got some insults in return.
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Re: Once again gun laws don't help. (CA shooting)

Post by M-Quigley »

catfish86 wrote:Whenever I get into it over a gun shooting responding to a "killer" gun control meme, I find it useful to 1) avoid insulting a person (ad hominem or attacking the man is text book admission your argument sucks and you have lost) and 2) ask them, OK, what new law do you propose and how would it have prevented this. I usually get a lot of ad hominem attacks in response (to which it is useful to request we refrain from insults and stick to the discussion). In this case, I responded to a meme with the mother saying she didn't want thoughts and prayers she wanted gun control.. After I dodged the insults, the lead person said "mental health checks". I pointed out that in following the law passed after Elliot Rogers killing spree (therapist sent cops to collect him shortly before and the deputies figured he seemed OK to them), the police were called on this shooter and a mental health team was brought in to assess him. They declared him OK. So a very personal mental health check was done here and failed. I got some insults in return.


Regarding the last sentence, there's an old quote popular with some lawyers that says

If the facts are against you, argue the law. If the law is against you, argue the facts. If the law and the facts are against you, pound the table and yell like hell” Carl Sandberg

I supposed insults are the internet equivalent of pounding the table. :roll:

I've been in discussions before regarding gun control, and I've had something similar happen. I don't think that you're going to change the mind of a die hard anti gunner, but many times others who are uninformed and maybe on the fence about an issue are watching and reading. When they see someone resort to insults in response to a reasoned position many of them are smart enough to realize what that means. It's those people on the sidelines that are really important to the discussion, not the person whose opinion is set in stone.
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Re: Once again gun laws don't help. (CA shooting)

Post by catfish86 »

Well said.

I have heard that same saying in a slightly different way: If you have the facts, pound the facts. If you have the law, pound the law. If you have neither, pound the table.

That is exactly what they are doing.
God,
Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
the courage to change the things I can
and the Wisdom to know the difference.

Carrying a gun is a right, not a crime.

Gun control is racist.
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Re: Once again gun laws don't help. (CA shooting)

Post by M-Quigley »

Some of the nonsense I read or heard after this shooting was that since the Deputy was killed responding to the shooting that a concealed carry holder who wasn't a trained professional or even the armed security there would've have stood a chance. Well, new information on the deputies death has come to light.

https://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2018/12 ... ndly-fire/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
THOUSAND OAKS (CBSLA) – Authorities reported Friday that the Ventura County Sheriff’s sergeant killed during the mass shooting at the Borderline Bar & Grill last month in Thousand Oaks was struck by friendly fire during a shootout with the gunman.

Sgt. Ron Helus, 54, was struck by five rounds from the suspect’s gun and a sixth round from the rifle of a California Highway Patrol officer. It was that sixth round which struck Helus in the chest and heart and ultimately killed him, authorities reported Friday morning.
Helus was killed despite wearing a protective vest.

“Two of the rounds fired struck the protective portion of the vest, but only near the very edge of the vest, so, in my mind, decreasing the protection provided,” Young said.
Long was armed with just one gun that night – a Glock .45-caliber handgun. However, he fired more than 50 rounds and had seven high-capacity, 30-round clips on him – a total of 230 bullets. He also had a flashlight with a laser sight.

At a previous news conference late last month, the Ventura County medical examiner said most of the victims were shot at close range, and that all of them had died quickly and could not have survived their wounds.
Last edited by M-Quigley on Fri Dec 07, 2018 3:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Once again gun laws don't help. (CA shooting)

Post by bignflnut »

Friendly Fire?
Is this possible?
Isn't there some amazing amount of taxpayer funded supreme master level training that protects innocents from being hit by good guy fire in a firefight?

Isn't that why the commoners cannot be trusted with weapons, they're too untrained, unwashed, unreliable? Isn't this why we need a paid police force in the first place, dispensing with that antiquated notion of militias? Commoners cannot be given such power, can they? It would be self-government, sure, but THAT'S just crazy talk!

Certainly this is CA's thought process, isn't it?
How can any of this be?
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