CHL holder shoots self gun tangles seatbelt getting out of

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Re: CHL holder shoots self gun tangles seatbelt getting out

Postby curmudgeon3 » Wed Sep 13, 2017 4:29 pm

Is the engineer who designed the "pull the trigger" feature for disassembly of a handgun still in jail ?
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Re: CHL holder shoots self gun tangles seatbelt getting out

Postby TSiWRX » Wed Sep 13, 2017 4:55 pm

^ I heard he shot himself......

:P
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Re: CHL holder shoots self gun tangles seatbelt getting out

Postby M-Quigley » Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:02 pm

TSiWRX wrote:^ We can't make any assumptions about our foe(s) in a deadly fight - we should never underestimate our enemies. We're Supermen until we die. ;) Just as we should never underestimate anyone's capacity for violence ( https://www.policeone.com/close-quarter ... a-suspect/ ) we should also not underestimate anyone's ability to execute that violence: maybe that homeless bum used to be in the military? maybe that old man fought in the Six Day War? we just don't know.

And as to the mechanical safety, again, there's been plenty of folks out there who've managed to "Glock" themselves with a 1911. Remember "Tex Grebner" from a few years ago? That's a well-known one that we can all see. On the flip (no pun intended :oops: ) side, we should also all realize that yes, while properly deactivating the safety is something that *should* be easy to do, under stress, this may not be true. How many times have we seen even on a recreational range-day that a fellow shooter forget to deactivate their safety and yet still try to fire? Just a couple of years ago, there was a rash of "tactical/defensive" handgun trainers who offered to waive the tuition of any students shooting 1911/2011s who were able to go the entire class without an instance of forgetting to take off or re-engage the safety: and even some very, very good shooters I know failed to meet this bar. And again, this isn't just limited to 1911s - the same can even be observed in carbine classes.

Yes, I get it - the mechanical safety is an additional measure of safety. But there's a reason why The Four Rules of firearms exists.

-----

carmen fovozzo wrote:Or even a High Point... :cry:


But maybe not the carbine?! :lol: :P

someguy wrote:The only thing we can be sure of is that he wasn't Israeli carrying.


Agreed. There had to have been one in the chamber - or one "next up" in the cylinder.


I relooked at the Tex video again, and had a question if anyone knows the answer. It's too blurry to tell, but did he have the safety on when it was in the holster? Even if you have a holster design where you can release the safety while in the holster, you're not supposed to release the safety until after it's cleared the holster. And even then you're supposed to keep the finger off the trigger until ready to fire. It looks like Tex committed a variety of mistakes.

I wish I'd know of these free courses a couple of years ago for anyone who doesn't fail to release their safety. Are any still available?
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Re: CHL holder shoots self gun tangles seatbelt getting out

Postby curmudgeon3 » Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:05 pm

^^Justice served.
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Re: CHL holder shoots self gun tangles seatbelt getting out

Postby schmieg » Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:54 pm

M-Quigley wrote:I relooked at the Tex video again, and had a question if anyone knows the answer. It's too blurry to tell, but did he have the safety on when it was in the holster? Even if you have a holster design where you can release the safety while in the holster, you're not supposed to release the safety until after it's cleared the holster. And even then you're supposed to keep the finger off the trigger until ready to fire. It looks like Tex committed a variety of mistakes.

I discovered that many 1911 holsters with a retention strap will disengage the safety while the gun is in the holster due to movement of your body. The first one I found that worked well was the Miami Classic II which allowed the 1911 safety to remain engaged no matter how I twisted the holster, but I still had problems finding an OWB holster with a retention strap that wold not disengage the safey and I tried some expensive as well as cheaper holsters in the process. Finally, I sent Dan Zlongie the Miami Classic to use as a guide and he was able to make me an OWB that worked properly.

Unfortunately, Dan had to shut his leather business down for personal reasons. I miss his gear.
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Re: CHL holder shoots self gun tangles seatbelt getting out

Postby TSiWRX » Thu Sep 14, 2017 7:35 am

M-Quigley wrote:I relooked at the Tex video again, and had a question if anyone knows the answer. It's too blurry to tell, but did he have the safety on when it was in the holster? Even if you have a holster design where you can release the safety while in the holster, you're not supposed to release the safety until after it's cleared the holster. And even then you're supposed to keep the finger off the trigger until ready to fire. It looks like Tex committed a variety of mistakes.


There's always debate in the community as to when the safety should come off, and when exactly the trigger should start to be prepped.

What's not up for debate, of-course, is that when the gun is in the holster, that safety should not have come off (unless the firearm was designed to be carried in this manner - i.e. DA-first-shot, decocker-equipped DA/SA)...and that the trigger should not be prepped until the muzzle clears one's body. :oops: :!: :!:

Indeed, in this case, it's a comedy of errors that, together, incurred the ND and its consequences.

My bet from having seen fellow students struggle with the locking SERPA under-stress is that the initial snag - just as Tex AAR'ed - caused him to just become more frustrated, and that his resultant clench of the weapon in trying to force-deactivate the release caused both the safety to be swept off by his thumb and his trigger finger to enter the trigger guard upon popping the lock. This type of stress reaction was what led to many training facilities, instructors, and institutions (FLETC, LAPD, etc.) to ban the use of the locking SERPA and other holsters that use a similar retention-release mechanism ("proximal to the trigger area").

I wish I'd know of these free courses a couple of years ago for anyone who doesn't fail to release their safety. Are any still available?


I don't believe so - and to the best of my knowledge, no-one was able to fully meet either criteria.
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Re: CHL holder shoots self gun tangles seatbelt getting out

Postby Bruenor » Thu Sep 14, 2017 2:23 pm

My bet from having seen fellow students struggle with the locking SERPA under-stress is that the initial snag - just as Tex AAR'ed - caused him to just become more frustrated, and that his resultant clench of the weapon in trying to force-deactivate the release caused both the safety to be swept off by his thumb and his trigger finger to enter the trigger guard upon popping the lock. This type of stress reaction was what led to many training facilities, instructors, and institutions (FLETC, LAPD, etc.) to ban the use of the locking SERPA and other holsters that use a similar retention-release mechanism ("proximal to the trigger area").


I own a serpa that I've neutered after experiencing this lockup effect.. Figured I'd rather preemptively destroy the locking mechanism than cause a self inflicted ND.

I've played with the safariland ALS holsters at Atwells, and man that system is SOOO much easier to use than the serpa, and it doesn't seem to slow you down at all during the draw. the mechanism is released with your thumb when you grip the pistol, NOT your trigger finger. After a couple practice draws you dont really think about having to release the pistol during the draw. I never ran into the issue where the gun binds the locking mech when testing it. I have an ALS on my list for an OWB retention holster. Not outrageously priced and a seemingly much better system.
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Re: CHL holder shoots self gun tangles seatbelt getting out

Postby TSiWRX » Thu Sep 14, 2017 4:29 pm

^ To tie into your post above, Bruenor, in going back to the OP, some of the problems with unintentional/forced trigger interaction occurred in Safariland light-enabled holsters, which, particularly on the side adjacent to the body, had a wide enough flare/opening over the trigger area that it made it possible for a finger (or something else) to get wedged-in and actuate the trigger while the gun was still securely holstered and retention-locked. Apparently, it's just a compromise they had to make to allow for clearance of the light during the draw/holster stroke.

A newer product - the 7TS - significantly closed that gap, but most current users of the 6000-series ALS holsters do not see this specific issue as that big of a concern, given their typical usage...nevertheless, that possibility does exist (same as it does of other light-bearing solutions), and has caused documented NDs.

Alas, everything is a compromise.

And personally, if I were to select a retention device, I would similarly side with the ALS system and others like it, instead of a release that was proximal to the trigger.
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Re: CHL holder shoots self gun tangles seatbelt getting out

Postby qmti » Fri Sep 22, 2017 6:36 am

qmti wrote:When it comes to my carry guns, all of mine have manual thumb safeties which are engaged at all times (like the 1911). You can call me "Old School" or worse but that's how I like it. Really, it doesn't take more than a nano second to disengage when pulling it from the holster. It's just another form of safety. Plus if someone would pull it from the holster it won't fire readily and gives me a chance to react (most criminals aren't gun savvy enough to disengage the safety, I think).



Re: girl dies after reaching into grandmothers purse for can
Unread postby M-Quigley » Thu Sep 21, 2017 9:23 pm

curmudgeon3 wrote:
In the article the police reported Nellie "pulled the trigger" but didn't say if she also disengaged the safety .... too bad.


I missed reading what kind of gun it was. Did it even have a safety? (by safety, I don't mean a trigger blade safety)

I've got safeties on my handguns, but they might only be a short delay if a child got a hold of them. I've heard some people say they think double action revolvers or DA semi autos might prevent young kids from pulling the trigger, but I wouldn't want to bet my life or theirs on that. I think the best idea regardless of the type of handgun is to prevent unauthorized people from getting a hold of them, whether children or adults.

QMTI:
I was at the gun range last night and talked to off duty policeman (9-21-2017) and was talking about the child that died. we talked about manual safeties. He carries a Glock with no manual safety on duty, trigger only, but his off duty carry gun, S&W has a manual safety.
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Re: CHL holder shoots self gun tangles seatbelt getting out

Postby M-Quigley » Fri Sep 22, 2017 7:34 am

qmti wrote:I was at the gun range last night and talked to off duty policeman (9-21-2017) and was talking about the child that died. we talked about manual safeties. He carries a Glock with no manual safety on duty, trigger only, but his off duty carry gun, S&W has a manual safety.


Hopefully he practices extensively with the draw and safety removal of the S&W. Having two different weapons systems might be a potential problem in a stressful emergency situation. If someone practices with a safety equipped handgun, and has to go to a Glock, that probably isn't a problem. Unconsciously flicking off a non existent safety (if it happens) isn't going to stop it's emergency use. If however you practice mainly with a non safety gun and then are forced to have to instantly use a safety equipped gun, you might not release the safety at first. That's my theory anyway.

Regardless, a safety switch is probably only a brief delaying action with children. It doesn't take much strength to release a safety. Untrained children, being curious, might play with any part of the gun that moves.
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Re: CHL holder shoots self gun tangles seatbelt getting out

Postby scottb » Fri Sep 22, 2017 7:37 am

I carried an M&P40C with a thumb safety. That safety was too easy to operate - sometimes my body (or bumping up against something) would switch the safety off. I never knew which state it was in. I replaced that with one that has no thumb safety and find that I like it much better. When holstering, I pay very careful attention to that trigger.
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Re: CHL holder shoots self gun tangles seatbelt getting out

Postby TSiWRX » Fri Sep 22, 2017 10:51 am

qmti wrote:QMTI:
I was at the gun range last night and talked to off duty policeman (9-21-2017) and was talking about the child that died. we talked about manual safeties. He carries a Glock with no manual safety on duty, trigger only, but his off duty carry gun, S&W has a manual safety.


The thread seems to have drifted somewhat, or perhaps there is perceived overlap ( with viewtopic.php?f=42&t=90458 ), but I think DontTreadOnMe wrote an excellent reply there that should be highlighted here as well, if we're talking about the potential for a child to interact with the trigger:

DontTreadOnMe wrote:
M-Quigley wrote: I've heard some people say they think double action revolvers or DA semi autos might prevent young kids from pulling the trigger, but I wouldn't want to bet my life or theirs on that.

Good instincts. Gun people make the mistake of thinking children will attempt to fire the gun "correctly", as in, with a firm grip from behind and a single finger on the trigger. That's often not the case. Children aren't trying to establish a proper shooting grip, they're just being curious. They may use 2 fingers on the trigger, their thumb(s), hold the gun backwards, or even from the side.

A 1995 study by the Pediatric Practice Research Group found that
Twenty-five percent of 3- to 4-year-olds, 70% of 5- to 6-year-olds, and 90% of 7- to 8-year-olds have a two-finger trigger-pull strength of at least 10 lb
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Re: CHL holder shoots self gun tangles seatbelt getting out

Postby catfish86 » Fri Sep 22, 2017 1:09 pm

The thought that occurred to me in reading this was if the gun in question may have been a revolver with a hammer. Could it have been a pull/release of the hammer on a loaded chamber on a revolver? It this most likely scenario in my mind.
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Re: CHL holder shoots self gun tangles seatbelt getting out

Postby Bruenor » Fri Sep 22, 2017 2:25 pm

catfish86 wrote:The thought that occurred to me in reading this was if the gun in question may have been a revolver with a hammer. Could it have been a pull/release of the hammer on a loaded chamber on a revolver? It this most likely scenario in my mind.


Don't most modern revolvers have transfer bars that only come up between the hammer and firing pin when you pull the trigger ? I don't think they will fire by just fanning the hammer, at least they are not supposed to.
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Re: CHL holder shoots self gun tangles seatbelt getting out

Postby MyWifeSaidYes » Sun Sep 24, 2017 1:31 am

While screwing around with his gun in the car, he shoots himself.

He can't use the tried and (almost never) true excuse of 'I was cleaning it and it went off', so he scrambled for any plausible excuse.

Let me know when you guys find the right combination of gun/holster/carry location that would allow a seatbelt to discharge the firearm.

:?
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