CHL holder shoots self gun tangles seatbelt getting out of

A place for sharing news stories related to armed citizens, law enforcement & 2A/CCW topics.

Please note that when linking to an article you must cite the source URL and provide no more than a brief preview of the article to ensure fair-use standards are met.

NO DOCUMENT DUMPING.

Posts in violation of these rules are subject to immediate deletion without warning.

Moderators: Coordinators, Moderators

Re: CHL holder shoots self gun tangles seatbelt getting out

Postby curmudgeon3 » Wed Sep 13, 2017 4:29 pm

Is the engineer who designed the "pull the trigger" feature for disassembly of a handgun still in jail ?
curmudgeon3
OFCC Member
OFCC Member
 
Posts: 6509
Joined: Mon Oct 01, 2007 11:31 pm

Re: CHL holder shoots self gun tangles seatbelt getting out

Postby TSiWRX » Wed Sep 13, 2017 4:55 pm

^ I heard he shot himself......

:P
Allen - Shaker Heights, Ohio
User avatar
TSiWRX
OFCC Patron Member
OFCC Patron Member
 
Posts: 6357
Joined: Fri Jan 28, 2011 8:33 pm
Location: Cleveland/Shaker Heights

Re: CHL holder shoots self gun tangles seatbelt getting out

Postby M-Quigley » Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:02 pm

TSiWRX wrote:^ We can't make any assumptions about our foe(s) in a deadly fight - we should never underestimate our enemies. We're Supermen until we die. ;) Just as we should never underestimate anyone's capacity for violence ( https://www.policeone.com/close-quarter ... a-suspect/ ) we should also not underestimate anyone's ability to execute that violence: maybe that homeless bum used to be in the military? maybe that old man fought in the Six Day War? we just don't know.

And as to the mechanical safety, again, there's been plenty of folks out there who've managed to "Glock" themselves with a 1911. Remember "Tex Grebner" from a few years ago? That's a well-known one that we can all see. On the flip (no pun intended :oops: ) side, we should also all realize that yes, while properly deactivating the safety is something that *should* be easy to do, under stress, this may not be true. How many times have we seen even on a recreational range-day that a fellow shooter forget to deactivate their safety and yet still try to fire? Just a couple of years ago, there was a rash of "tactical/defensive" handgun trainers who offered to waive the tuition of any students shooting 1911/2011s who were able to go the entire class without an instance of forgetting to take off or re-engage the safety: and even some very, very good shooters I know failed to meet this bar. And again, this isn't just limited to 1911s - the same can even be observed in carbine classes.

Yes, I get it - the mechanical safety is an additional measure of safety. But there's a reason why The Four Rules of firearms exists.

-----

carmen fovozzo wrote:Or even a High Point... :cry:


But maybe not the carbine?! :lol: :P

someguy wrote:The only thing we can be sure of is that he wasn't Israeli carrying.


Agreed. There had to have been one in the chamber - or one "next up" in the cylinder.


I relooked at the Tex video again, and had a question if anyone knows the answer. It's too blurry to tell, but did he have the safety on when it was in the holster? Even if you have a holster design where you can release the safety while in the holster, you're not supposed to release the safety until after it's cleared the holster. And even then you're supposed to keep the finger off the trigger until ready to fire. It looks like Tex committed a variety of mistakes.

I wish I'd know of these free courses a couple of years ago for anyone who doesn't fail to release their safety. Are any still available?
M-Quigley
 
Posts: 2029
Joined: Wed Jun 24, 2015 10:06 pm
Location: Western Ohio

Re: CHL holder shoots self gun tangles seatbelt getting out

Postby curmudgeon3 » Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:05 pm

^^Justice served.
curmudgeon3
OFCC Member
OFCC Member
 
Posts: 6509
Joined: Mon Oct 01, 2007 11:31 pm

Re: CHL holder shoots self gun tangles seatbelt getting out

Postby schmieg » Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:54 pm

M-Quigley wrote:I relooked at the Tex video again, and had a question if anyone knows the answer. It's too blurry to tell, but did he have the safety on when it was in the holster? Even if you have a holster design where you can release the safety while in the holster, you're not supposed to release the safety until after it's cleared the holster. And even then you're supposed to keep the finger off the trigger until ready to fire. It looks like Tex committed a variety of mistakes.

I discovered that many 1911 holsters with a retention strap will disengage the safety while the gun is in the holster due to movement of your body. The first one I found that worked well was the Miami Classic II which allowed the 1911 safety to remain engaged no matter how I twisted the holster, but I still had problems finding an OWB holster with a retention strap that wold not disengage the safey and I tried some expensive as well as cheaper holsters in the process. Finally, I sent Dan Zlongie the Miami Classic to use as a guide and he was able to make me an OWB that worked properly.

Unfortunately, Dan had to shut his leather business down for personal reasons. I miss his gear.
-- Mike

"The smallest minority on earth is the individual. Those who deny individual rights cannot claim to be defenders of minorities." - Ayn Rand
User avatar
schmieg
OFCC Coordinator
OFCC Coordinator
 
Posts: 4807
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 11:11 pm
Location: Madeira, Ohio

Re: CHL holder shoots self gun tangles seatbelt getting out

Postby TSiWRX » Thu Sep 14, 2017 7:35 am

M-Quigley wrote:I relooked at the Tex video again, and had a question if anyone knows the answer. It's too blurry to tell, but did he have the safety on when it was in the holster? Even if you have a holster design where you can release the safety while in the holster, you're not supposed to release the safety until after it's cleared the holster. And even then you're supposed to keep the finger off the trigger until ready to fire. It looks like Tex committed a variety of mistakes.


There's always debate in the community as to when the safety should come off, and when exactly the trigger should start to be prepped.

What's not up for debate, of-course, is that when the gun is in the holster, that safety should not have come off (unless the firearm was designed to be carried in this manner - i.e. DA-first-shot, decocker-equipped DA/SA)...and that the trigger should not be prepped until the muzzle clears one's body. :oops: :!: :!:

Indeed, in this case, it's a comedy of errors that, together, incurred the ND and its consequences.

My bet from having seen fellow students struggle with the locking SERPA under-stress is that the initial snag - just as Tex AAR'ed - caused him to just become more frustrated, and that his resultant clench of the weapon in trying to force-deactivate the release caused both the safety to be swept off by his thumb and his trigger finger to enter the trigger guard upon popping the lock. This type of stress reaction was what led to many training facilities, instructors, and institutions (FLETC, LAPD, etc.) to ban the use of the locking SERPA and other holsters that use a similar retention-release mechanism ("proximal to the trigger area").

I wish I'd know of these free courses a couple of years ago for anyone who doesn't fail to release their safety. Are any still available?


I don't believe so - and to the best of my knowledge, no-one was able to fully meet either criteria.
Allen - Shaker Heights, Ohio
User avatar
TSiWRX
OFCC Patron Member
OFCC Patron Member
 
Posts: 6357
Joined: Fri Jan 28, 2011 8:33 pm
Location: Cleveland/Shaker Heights

Re: CHL holder shoots self gun tangles seatbelt getting out

Postby Bruenor » Thu Sep 14, 2017 2:23 pm

My bet from having seen fellow students struggle with the locking SERPA under-stress is that the initial snag - just as Tex AAR'ed - caused him to just become more frustrated, and that his resultant clench of the weapon in trying to force-deactivate the release caused both the safety to be swept off by his thumb and his trigger finger to enter the trigger guard upon popping the lock. This type of stress reaction was what led to many training facilities, instructors, and institutions (FLETC, LAPD, etc.) to ban the use of the locking SERPA and other holsters that use a similar retention-release mechanism ("proximal to the trigger area").


I own a serpa that I've neutered after experiencing this lockup effect.. Figured I'd rather preemptively destroy the locking mechanism than cause a self inflicted ND.

I've played with the safariland ALS holsters at Atwells, and man that system is SOOO much easier to use than the serpa, and it doesn't seem to slow you down at all during the draw. the mechanism is released with your thumb when you grip the pistol, NOT your trigger finger. After a couple practice draws you dont really think about having to release the pistol during the draw. I never ran into the issue where the gun binds the locking mech when testing it. I have an ALS on my list for an OWB retention holster. Not outrageously priced and a seemingly much better system.
Μολὼν λαβέ

"Arms discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property. . . Horrid mischief would ensue were the law-abiding deprived of the use of them."

- Thomas Paine
User avatar
Bruenor
 
Posts: 5685
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2006 3:03 pm
Location: Geneva, OH

Re: CHL holder shoots self gun tangles seatbelt getting out

Postby TSiWRX » Thu Sep 14, 2017 4:29 pm

^ To tie into your post above, Bruenor, in going back to the OP, some of the problems with unintentional/forced trigger interaction occurred in Safariland light-enabled holsters, which, particularly on the side adjacent to the body, had a wide enough flare/opening over the trigger area that it made it possible for a finger (or something else) to get wedged-in and actuate the trigger while the gun was still securely holstered and retention-locked. Apparently, it's just a compromise they had to make to allow for clearance of the light during the draw/holster stroke.

A newer product - the 7TS - significantly closed that gap, but most current users of the 6000-series ALS holsters do not see this specific issue as that big of a concern, given their typical usage...nevertheless, that possibility does exist (same as it does of other light-bearing solutions), and has caused documented NDs.

Alas, everything is a compromise.

And personally, if I were to select a retention device, I would similarly side with the ALS system and others like it, instead of a release that was proximal to the trigger.
Allen - Shaker Heights, Ohio
User avatar
TSiWRX
OFCC Patron Member
OFCC Patron Member
 
Posts: 6357
Joined: Fri Jan 28, 2011 8:33 pm
Location: Cleveland/Shaker Heights

Previous

Return to In The News

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests