Need legal help

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MyWifeSaidYes
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Re: Need legal help

Post by MyWifeSaidYes »

JediSkipdogg wrote:... Me buying for my friend/girlfriend is not a straw purchase. Me knowing they are prohibited because they didn't pass NICS, that's a straw purchase.
While buying a gun to give to someone (who CAN legally posses a firearm) as a gift is NOT a straw purchase, but buying a gun ON BEHALF OF someone else IS a straw purchase, EVEN IF THE RECIPIENT IS NOT UNDER DISABILITY. (Abramski v. United States = do NOT lie on the 4473)

If the OP's wife wants to purchase a firearm for HERSELF, it is NOT a straw purchase, but if her address is the same as her husband, she risks a visit from goobermint agents.
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WY_Not
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Re: Need legal help

Post by WY_Not »

Not much difference between the two for a husband and wife. All funds are joint as is property afterwards. A friend giving you $#### to go buy them a firearm is much different than buying a friend a firearm using your own money. I can see that being easy to prove via the paper trail and money trail. Wife buying a firearm for husband as a gift vs buying it at his request? Not seeing much difference or any easy way to prove one way or the other.

As in the case of me buying firearms in pairs, one for me and one for wife. The end result is the same. Some I bought because I wanted them and she was given one. Others I bought because I knew she wanted them and she was given one.
MyWifeSaidYes wrote:
JediSkipdogg wrote:... Me buying for my friend/girlfriend is not a straw purchase. Me knowing they are prohibited because they didn't pass NICS, that's a straw purchase.
While buying a gun to give to someone (who CAN legally posses a firearm) as a gift is NOT a straw purchase, but buying a gun ON BEHALF OF someone else IS a straw purchase, EVEN IF THE RECIPIENT IS NOT UNDER DISABILITY. (Abramski v. United States = do NOT lie on the 4473)

If the OP's wife wants to purchase a firearm for HERSELF, it is NOT a straw purchase, but if her address is the same as her husband, she risks a visit from goobermint agents.
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Curzyk
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Re: Need legal help

Post by Curzyk »

WY_Not wrote:Not much difference between the two for a husband and wife. All funds are joint as is property afterwards. A friend giving you $#### to go buy them a firearm is much different than buying a friend a firearm using your own money. I can see that being easy to prove via the paper trail and money trail. Wife buying a firearm for husband as a gift vs buying it at his request? Not seeing much difference or any easy way to prove one way or the other.

As in the case of me buying firearms in pairs, one for me and one for wife. The end result is the same. Some I bought because I wanted them and she was given one. Others I bought because I knew she wanted them and she was given one.
Wouldn't joint ownership via marriage mean that the prohibited spouse has [some/any] possession? Similarly, would possessing firearms in the same household as a prohibited individual count as constructive possession?
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WY_Not
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Re: Need legal help

Post by WY_Not »

Honestly, not sure. Have always heard/read that as long as the legal person maintains control/possession they are good. ie The firearms are stored in a safe that only they have the key/combination to. Of course that could also depend on the terms of the other person's probation, if on probation or other court dictates. Neither me, my wife, nor any immediate family members are prohibited persons so not really a huge concern for me. Just curiosity.
Curzyk wrote:
WY_Not wrote:Not much difference between the two for a husband and wife. All funds are joint as is property afterwards. A friend giving you $#### to go buy them a firearm is much different than buying a friend a firearm using your own money. I can see that being easy to prove via the paper trail and money trail. Wife buying a firearm for husband as a gift vs buying it at his request? Not seeing much difference or any easy way to prove one way or the other.

As in the case of me buying firearms in pairs, one for me and one for wife. The end result is the same. Some I bought because I wanted them and she was given one. Others I bought because I knew she wanted them and she was given one.
Wouldn't joint ownership via marriage mean that the prohibited spouse has [some/any] possession? Similarly, would possessing firearms in the same household as a prohibited individual count as constructive possession?
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Samuel Adams wrote:If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.
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Re: Need legal help

Post by kcclark »

Curzyk wrote: Wouldn't joint ownership via marriage mean that the prohibited spouse has [some/any] possession? Similarly, would possessing firearms in the same household as a prohibited individual count as constructive possession?
G. Gordon LIddy used to mention on his radio show how he was barred from owning firearms but his wife "owned" a bunch. A quote of his you will find on the Internet is, ""Mrs. Liddy has an extensive collection of firearms, some of which she keeps on my side of the bed."
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MyWifeSaidYes
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Re: Need legal help

Post by MyWifeSaidYes »

Constructive possession wouldn't apply if the firearm was secured and the wife had the only access (combination, code, fingerprint, etc.).

If she had a key, she would have to keep the key secure so the husband couldn't get it.
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Re: Need legal help

Post by JediSkipdogg »

MyWifeSaidYes wrote:
JediSkipdogg wrote:... Me buying for my friend/girlfriend is not a straw purchase. Me knowing they are prohibited because they didn't pass NICS, that's a straw purchase.
While buying a gun to give to someone (who CAN legally posses a firearm) as a gift is NOT a straw purchase, but buying a gun ON BEHALF OF someone else IS a straw purchase, EVEN IF THE RECIPIENT IS NOT UNDER DISABILITY. (Abramski v. United States = do NOT lie on the 4473)

If the OP's wife wants to purchase a firearm for HERSELF, it is NOT a straw purchase, but if her address is the same as her husband, she risks a visit from goobermint agents.
I was waiting till someone brought up that court case. Keep in mind, he was never charged for a straw purchase and straw purchase was never brought up in that case. He was charged with falsifying a federal document, aka the 4473. Therefore, that is not a good case to use in this discussion.

If I see a firearm for sale on here, and want to buy it on behalf of a coworker, and have no knowledge of them being prohibited, that is not a straw purchase. Now, I can't do that at an FFL, because I would have to lie on the 4473 in order to do that as I would not being buying it for myself or as a gift. However, private party sale and buying for someone else IS NOT a straw purchase.
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Re: Need legal help

Post by DontTreadOnMe »

JediSkipdogg wrote:
MyWifeSaidYes wrote:While buying a gun to give to someone (who CAN legally posses a firearm) as a gift is NOT a straw purchase, but buying a gun ON BEHALF OF someone else IS a straw purchase, EVEN IF THE RECIPIENT IS NOT UNDER DISABILITY. (Abramski v. United States = do NOT lie on the 4473)

If the OP's wife wants to purchase a firearm for HERSELF, it is NOT a straw purchase, but if her address is the same as her husband, she risks a visit from goobermint agents.
I was waiting till someone brought up that court case. Keep in mind, he was never charged for a straw purchase and straw purchase was never brought up in that case. He was charged with falsifying a federal document, aka the 4473. Therefore, that is not a good case to use in this discussion.
From the opinion (emphasis mine):
To ensure the accuracy of those submissions, a federal statute imposes criminal penalties on any person who, in connection with a firearm’s acquisition, makes false statements about “any fact material to the lawfulness of the sale.” 18 U. S. C. §922(a)(6). In this case, we consider how that law applies to a so-called straw purchaser—namely, a person who buys a gun on someone else’s behalf while falsely claiming that it is for himself.
SCOTUS defined straw purchase more broadly, specifically to encompass Abramski's behavior.
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JediSkipdogg
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Re: Need legal help

Post by JediSkipdogg »

DontTreadOnMe wrote:
JediSkipdogg wrote:
MyWifeSaidYes wrote:While buying a gun to give to someone (who CAN legally posses a firearm) as a gift is NOT a straw purchase, but buying a gun ON BEHALF OF someone else IS a straw purchase, EVEN IF THE RECIPIENT IS NOT UNDER DISABILITY. (Abramski v. United States = do NOT lie on the 4473)

If the OP's wife wants to purchase a firearm for HERSELF, it is NOT a straw purchase, but if her address is the same as her husband, she risks a visit from goobermint agents.
I was waiting till someone brought up that court case. Keep in mind, he was never charged for a straw purchase and straw purchase was never brought up in that case. He was charged with falsifying a federal document, aka the 4473. Therefore, that is not a good case to use in this discussion.
From the opinion (emphasis mine):
To ensure the accuracy of those submissions, a federal statute imposes criminal penalties on any person who, in connection with a firearm’s acquisition, makes false statements about “any fact material to the lawfulness of the sale.” 18 U. S. C. §922(a)(6). In this case, we consider how that law applies to a so-called straw purchaser—namely, a person who buys a gun on someone else’s behalf while falsely claiming that it is for himself.
SCOTUS defined straw purchase more broadly, specifically to encompass Abramski's behavior.
Keep in mind the SCOTUS has never defined straw purchase, they have only referred to it in cases. Also, 18 U. S. C. §922(a)(6) refers to buying from a licensed dealer, so again, we go back to an FFL and not a private party. The ATF book of Federal Firearm Regulations even talks about a straw purchase as lying on the 4473 and that crime is falsification.

There is no federal or state law that says I can't buy a firearm from Brian D. and turn around and sell it to Werz tomorrow because I'll be driving his way. The only time it comes into play is one starts doing it as a business, which to me would entail profit or a large quantity of transfers.
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Re: Need legal help

Post by gt3400ph »

Sorry if I didn't clarify this. My intentions is not a straw purchase. I just wanted to know if my wife wants to buy a gun in the future (which she intends on doing) will she be able to? (if my appeal doesnt clear for some reason) I don't believe that its fair that my wife (completely legal) can not purchase a firearm for herself just because someone at the FBI can not do their paperwork correctly for me...her husband.
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