HB 228: Stand your ground + other changes

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Re: HB 228: Stand your ground + other changes

Post by bignflnut »

Ammoland has posted the following:
Ohioans for Concealed Carry needs you to contact your Ohio Senator and Representative to urge them to vote to override Kasich's anti-citizen and anti-law enforcement veto of HB228!

As you may know, this bill makes improvements to Ohio's concealed carry law:

1) Shifts the burden of proof in self defense shootings from the accused to the prosecutor (like 49 other states in the Union have).
2) Strengthens Ohio Revised Code 9.68 to prevent municipalities from continuing to violate state preemption law without financial repercussions.
3) Makes straw purchases a state crime.
4) Removes the requirement to carry a second form of identification in addition to a concealed handgun license.
5) Removes the requirement to post “no guns” signs in statutory locations that have opted to allow carry.
6) Permits law enforcement officers without a CHL to carry into liquor establishments when off duty.
7) Adds correction officers to the list of persons required to complete a firearms requalification program annually.
With so much of the talk on this thread being negative towards HB228, is there now a case being made to revive it?
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Re: HB 228: Stand your ground + other changes

Post by schmieg »

bignflnut wrote:Ammoland has posted the following:
Ohioans for Concealed Carry needs you to contact your Ohio Senator and Representative to urge them to vote to override Kasich's anti-citizen and anti-law enforcement veto of HB228!

As you may know, this bill makes improvements to Ohio's concealed carry law:

1) Shifts the burden of proof in self defense shootings from the accused to the prosecutor (like 49 other states in the Union have).
2) Strengthens Ohio Revised Code 9.68 to prevent municipalities from continuing to violate state preemption law without financial repercussions.
3) Makes straw purchases a state crime.
4) Removes the requirement to carry a second form of identification in addition to a concealed handgun license.
5) Removes the requirement to post “no guns” signs in statutory locations that have opted to allow carry.
6) Permits law enforcement officers without a CHL to carry into liquor establishments when off duty.
7) Adds correction officers to the list of persons required to complete a firearms requalification program annually.
With so much of the talk on this thread being negative towards HB228, is there now a case being made to revive it?
There are two paths of thought on this. One, to which I subscribe, is to let the veto stand and start over as this seems to be the safest path. The other wants to get the few benefits of 228 and trust the legislators and next governor to promptly fix the problems.

Personally, I don't trust politicians to "fix" anything, much less promptly.
-- Mike

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Re: HB 228: Stand your ground + other changes

Post by bignflnut »

Seeing how NJ just banned cops and all citizens from what they call LCMs(mags with 11 or more capacity), I share your skepticism that Ohio legislators and the governor will/can fix anything.
“It’s not that we don’t have enough scoundrels to curse; it’s that we don’t have enough good men to curse them.”–G.K. Chesterton-Illustrated London News, 3-14-1908

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Re: HB 228: Stand your ground + other changes

Post by Chuck »

bignflnut wrote:Ammoland has posted the following:
Ohioans for Concealed Carry needs you to contact your Ohio Senator and Representative to urge them to vote to override Kasich's anti-citizen and anti-law enforcement veto of HB228!

As you may know, this bill makes improvements to Ohio's concealed carry law:

1) Shifts the burden of proof in self defense shootings from the accused to the prosecutor (like 49 other states in the Union have).
2) Strengthens Ohio Revised Code 9.68 to prevent municipalities from continuing to violate state preemption law without financial repercussions.
3) Makes straw purchases a state crime.
4) Removes the requirement to carry a second form of identification in addition to a concealed handgun license.
5) Removes the requirement to post “no guns” signs in statutory locations that have opted to allow carry.
6) Permits law enforcement officers without a CHL to carry into liquor establishments when off duty.
7) Adds correction officers to the list of persons required to complete a firearms requalification program annually.
With so much of the talk on this thread being negative towards HB228, is there now a case being made to revive it?
Our plan was always to cram as much into the bill as possible and override the veto. Lot's of enthusiasm in the House for an override, on ANY pro-gun rights legislation.
Once it got to the Senate, things changed, and they removed some good parts.

Our plan hasn't changed, and we are still looking forward to override votes the Thursday and Friday. I, for one, especially want to see our governor leave office with the sting of having his veto overridden warm on his behind. (and strictly speaking personally for myself, I hope it's not the only one)

We have emailed the entire legislature and sent a couple blasts to members urging them to contact reps for override.

If in my anger over the Senate's cuts I gave you the impression that we no longer wanted an override, I apologize
I REALLY want this override. I could write a book on the reasons

Heck, I was even on the news calling for an override
https://www.10tv.com/article/gun-organi ... NGZzv-ReRo" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: HB 228: Stand your ground + other changes

Post by schmieg »

I would really like to see the elimination of the affirmative defense and I would really like to stick my thumb into Kasich's eye with the override, but I'm scared of the mess they made with the dangerous ordinance screwup. That is easy to fix and could be done within the first couple of days of the next session, but something always seems to derail such fixes and then the door is open to an anti prosecutor and judge causing someone a lot of grief and money and possibly more before the fix gets done. Now the rise of such cases might cause the legislature to move quickly, but that doesn't help the poor schlub who gets caught in the meat grinder.
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Re: HB 228: Stand your ground + other changes

Post by Chuck »

You're a lawyer, Mike, so tell me
Is it worse than before? seriously, noticeably worse?
Can you explain in simple before/after terms so I can understand?
Ain't activism fun?

"Associate with men of good quality if you esteem your own reputation; for it is better to be alone than in bad company. " - George Washington

"I am only one, but I am one. I cannot do everything, but I can do something.
And because I can not do everything, I will not refuse to do the something I can do.
What I can do, I should do. And what I should do, by the grace of GOD, I will do."
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Re: HB 228: Stand your ground + other changes

Post by bignflnut »

Chuck wrote:
Heck, I was even on the news calling for an override
https://www.10tv.com/article/gun-organi ... NGZzv-ReRo" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Calling the veto a temper tantrum is priceless and laser accurate.
Well played! (Somehow, the local media properly communicated your message.)

Innocent until proven guilty is a great ERPO retort!
“It’s not that we don’t have enough scoundrels to curse; it’s that we don’t have enough good men to curse them.”–G.K. Chesterton-Illustrated London News, 3-14-1908

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"Avarice, ambition, revenge and licentiousness would break the strongest cords of our Constitution, as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." John Adams to Mass Militia 10-11-1798
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Re: HB 228: Stand your ground + other changes

Post by schmieg »

Chuck wrote:You're a lawyer, Mike, so tell me
Is it worse than before? seriously, noticeably worse?
Can you explain in simple before/after terms so I can understand?
Is the definition put in place for the Shockwave worse than before? If that is your question, the answer is absolutely. Essentially, what happened is that now all long guns are in the same position as the Shockwave in being classified as dangerous ordinance unless you can show a sporting purpose. While that may not be too difficult for, say, a Remington 700, it becomes more problematic with a Kalishnakov. Even though AR's are used throughout the US as varmint rifles, many courts have determined that it has no sporting value.

While that issue may not survive appeals in Ohio, simply being prosecuted would have devastating effects on many Ohio gun owners, both economic and social. Those that can't afford appeals and plea bargain may find that after the issue is finally resolved, they are stuck with the record anyway, along with the probably loss of employment, possible incarceration and all the other stuff that brings. If there is an override, we need to harass the legislature until this is fixed. Kasich may have blown his desire in vetoing this as it could have been, and still might be, a stealth assault weapons ban.
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Re: HB 228: Stand your ground + other changes

Post by bignflnut »

If I may, I think the question was on the whole HB228: how much worse is it as passed than it was as initially proposed.
“It’s not that we don’t have enough scoundrels to curse; it’s that we don’t have enough good men to curse them.”–G.K. Chesterton-Illustrated London News, 3-14-1908

Republicans.Hate.You. See2020.

"Avarice, ambition, revenge and licentiousness would break the strongest cords of our Constitution, as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." John Adams to Mass Militia 10-11-1798
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Re: HB 228: Stand your ground + other changes

Post by WhyNot »

Re:
Is the definition put in place for the Shockwave worse than before? If that is your question, the answer is absolutely. Essentially, what happened is that now all long guns are in the same position as the Shockwave in being classified as dangerous ordinance unless ...


.... in Ohio, simply being prosecuted would have devastating effects on many Ohio gun owners, both economic and social. Those that can't afford appeals and plea bargain may find that after the issue is finally resolved, they are stuck with the record anyway, along with the probably loss of employment, possible incarceration and all the other stuff that brings. If there is an override, we need to harass the legislature until this is fixed.


STILL WAITING FOR THE LANGUAGE, NAME OF THE REP or SENATOR LEADN' THE CHARGE, COMMITTEE MINUTES OF SAME. SHUCKS WHY NOT :o MINOR DETAILS ON AN AFTER DINNER COCKTAIL NAPKIN PLEASE.


OTHERWISE, NO NO NO

We have harrassed the Legispotators long and longer, to get to this mess??? The ''fix'' will be quick? Yeah. Uh huh, right. Any money on that??? $$ on day two, three....week 4...1st 6 months??
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Re: HB 228: Stand your ground + other changes

Post by WestonDon »

After considering this for far longer than I should have I finally contacted my rep and senator and urged them to vote to override. My reasoning is that fixing the burden of proof along with some of the other enhancements outweighs the potential for bad in the shockwave debacle. I think that screwup is so egregious that it will be either repealed or overturned by the courts in short order.


I hope it lands on Kasich right where the sun don't shine.


The thing that sticks in my craw the most is that by overriding this veto the FOP gets what they wanted while they stuck it to us once again.
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Re: HB 228: Stand your ground + other changes

Post by M-Quigley »

I once had a relative who was a juror in a self defense case. The law abiding armed defendant with no criminal record was the victim of a thief with an extensive record, but of course the jury wasn't allowed to consider that. The gun owner was charged and convicted. I asked her afterwards why she voted to convict and it was simply due to the jury instructions given to her. She didn't want to but she felt she had to under the law. She did not know anything about jury nullification nor did anyone tell her either. I asked her if the defendant had been considered innocent until proven guilty, would she have still voted to convict with the same set of known facts? Her reply was an emphatic NO.

What's that old saying, there but for the grace of God go I? It's kind of the way I felt at the time for the poor guy.

As egregious as the language is regarding length and the possibility of that being misused in a malicious prosecution of a gun owner somewhere, which is the more likely possibility in the next weeks or months? Someone getting charged for possessing an AR or AK, or someone being involved in a self defense shooting and has to prove their innocent? Which legal defense is more expensive to the victim? They're both wrong but which is the greater wrong? How many people in Ohio have already been convicted and sent to prison simply because of this standard? I can personally think of at least a couple of self defense shootings that went this way. How difficult should it be in the 2019 session to fix one word on one sentence of a law?
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Re: HB 228: Stand your ground + other changes

Post by rickt »

WhyNot wrote:STILL WAITING FOR THE LANGUAGE, NAME OF THE REP or SENATOR LEADN' THE CHARGE, COMMITTEE MINUTES OF SAME. SHUCKS WHY NOT :o MINOR DETAILS ON AN AFTER DINNER COCKTAIL NAPKIN PLEASE.
The committee minutes are publicly available on the committee web site. All the minutes show is this:
Senator Uecker moved to adopt l_132_0595-14. Senator Huffman seconded the motion. Senator Jordan objected to the adoption of l_132_0595-14. The substitute bill was favorably accepted by a vote of 7-1.
http://search-prod.lis.state.oh.us/cm_p ... inutes.pdf
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Re: HB 228: Stand your ground + other changes

Post by Liberty »

schmieg wrote:
Chuck wrote:You're a lawyer, Mike, so tell me
Is it worse than before? seriously, noticeably worse?
Can you explain in simple before/after terms so I can understand?
Is the definition put in place for the Shockwave worse than before? If that is your question, the answer is absolutely. Essentially, what happened is that now all long guns are in the same position as the Shockwave in being classified as dangerous ordinance unless you can show a sporting purpose. While that may not be too difficult for, say, a Remington 700, it becomes more problematic with a Kalishnakov. Even though AR's are used throughout the US as varmint rifles, many courts have determined that it has no sporting value.

While that issue may not survive appeals in Ohio, simply being prosecuted would have devastating effects on many Ohio gun owners, both economic and social. Those that can't afford appeals and plea bargain may find that after the issue is finally resolved, they are stuck with the record anyway, along with the probably loss of employment, possible incarceration and all the other stuff that brings. If there is an override, we need to harass the legislature until this is fixed. Kasich may have blown his desire in vetoing this as it could have been, and still might be, a stealth assault weapons ban.
I agree 100% with an extra !! The burden of proof absolutely has to be changed, and it will. Ohio is the last state to fix it, but it is not worth imposing an assault weapons ban. How many of you guys have an AK or an AR? The anti-freedom know who some of you are. If the veto is overridden, you need to either move out of Ohio or prepare to litigate from a jail cell. Rank and file LE may not want to arrest you, but the politically appointed supervisors will order them to, and the prosecutors will race to the first to prosecute "right-wing gun nuts" for Ohio's new assault weapons ban while Kasich laughs and DeWine pretends to be offended while enforcing the law because it will be the law. I do not trust the courts or the legislature to fix it, and the anti-freedom crowd will bring millions of dollars to lobby to keep it.

As I said before, If the legislators would really fix it, they would have no problem letting the veto stand and passing a clean bill next session. It should take only as long as a bill to just fix the dangerous ordnance definition. All they have to do is just fix that language in a bill exactly like Am Sub HB 228, and declare that they already voted on it, but that it had to be killed due to typos. There is no need for extensive hearings etc... If they override the veto knowing what the language is, they want an assault weapons ban.

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Re: HB 228: Stand your ground + other changes

Post by JustaShooter »

Guys & gals it is my firm belief that you are making a mountain out of a molehill. The Dangerous Ordnance definition *already* contains the following:
2923.11 (K)(4) Any firearm, rocket launcher, mortar, artillery piece, grenade, mine, bomb, torpedo, or similar weapon, designed and manufactured for military purposes, and the ammunition for that weapon;
If the new language would open the door to prosecution for possession of an AR or AK pattern rifle, so would this. This section would *also* open the door to prosecution for possession of certain handguns - you know, like the 1911, Beretta 9mm, etc., unless the sporting exception applies, no?

If the sporting exception covers these, then it will also cover the Shockwave screw-up.
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