HB 142 Duty to Inform

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Re: HB 142 Duty to Inform

Postby WestonDon » Thu Oct 26, 2017 8:41 pm

qmti wrote:
TSiWRX wrote:^ Are these media outlets just parroting the BFA's line on the bill?

Maybe it's my ESL - or maybe just the fact that I suck at legalese - but it seemed to me in reading the BFA releases that their take is considerably different from the OFCC's? It seems that they do not see any of the very apparent dangers, at all, of this bill?


I think they see the issue we have at OFCC, but they embraced the sub bill with the attitude that something, regardless how bad/incorrect it is, is better than nothing. BFA could be appeasing the OSP/FOP for some gain of some kind. But that's just my opinion.


This is reminiscent of Zippy's Iran nuclear deal where getting a deal was more important than what was in the deal. Both BFA and NRA get to put one in the win column and we get a bad law we have to live with.
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Re: HB 142 Duty to Inform

Postby Chuck » Thu Oct 26, 2017 10:18 pm

WestonDon wrote:
qmti wrote:
TSiWRX wrote:^ Are these media outlets just parroting the BFA's line on the bill?

Maybe it's my ESL - or maybe just the fact that I suck at legalese - but it seemed to me in reading the BFA releases that their take is considerably different from the OFCC's? It seems that they do not see any of the very apparent dangers, at all, of this bill?


I think they see the issue we have at OFCC, but they embraced the sub bill with the attitude that something, regardless how bad/incorrect it is, is better than nothing. BFA could be appeasing the OSP/FOP for some gain of some kind. But that's just my opinion.


This is reminiscent of Zippy's Iran nuclear deal where getting a deal was more important than what was in the deal. Both BFA and NRA get to put one in the win column and we get a bad law we have to live with.


Frankly, I see it as a betrayal of the worst sort. They didn't care, they had no interest in the thing. In all the years of CC in Ohio, they had NEVER tried to fix this poison pill.
Once something started to happen on this issue, due to our efforts, They started to market it and lobby for "compromise"
Now they are claiming credit for a great achievement , as though they fought long and hard for this, when actually, they sabotaged a perfectly passable bill.

NRA and BFA have both shopped their legislative agendas around the statehouse this session.
Guess what isn't on their list? That's right, repealing notification was never on their agenda.
So they killed ours
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Re: HB 142 Duty to Inform

Postby Ole_grizzly » Fri Oct 27, 2017 2:43 pm

Chuck wrote:
WestonDon wrote:
qmti wrote:^ Are these media outlets just parroting the BFA's line on the bill?

Maybe it's my ESL - or maybe just the fact that I suck at legalese - but it seemed to me in reading the BFA releases that their take is considerably different from the OFCC's? It seems that they do not see any of the very apparent dangers, at all, of this bill?


I think they see the issue we have at OFCC, but they embraced the sub bill with the attitude that something, regardless how bad/incorrect it is, is better than nothing. BFA could be appeasing the OSP/FOP for some gain of some kind. But that's just my opinion.


This is reminiscent of Zippy's Iran nuclear deal where getting a deal was more important than what was in the deal. Both BFA and NRA get to put one in the win column and we get a bad law we have to live with.


Frankly, I see it as a betrayal of the worst sort. They didn't care, they had no interest in the thing. In all the years of CC in Ohio, they had NEVER tried to fix this poison pill.
Once something started to happen on this issue, due to our efforts, They started to market it and lobby for "compromise"
Now they are claiming credit for a great achievement , as though they fought long and hard for this, when actually, they sabotaged a perfectly passable bill.

NRA and BFA have both shopped their legislative agendas around the statehouse this session.
Guess what isn't on their list? That's right, repealing notification was never on their agenda.
So they killed ours[/quote]


Betrayal of the worst sort? I am in no way trying to poke anyone on this issue, as I share your disappointment. However as you’ve heard from me in the past, I don’t think repealing notification is a top priority, albeit desirable. How this went down sucks, and you’re all right that this is now a settled issue and won’t be revisited anytime soon at the statehouse.

I’m guessing the timing of my next statement isn’t great now, but I don’t know when it will be. But had ofcc made more an effort previously to normalize relations with bfa they may not have ignored us on this issue. Yes there’s a history, I presume an ugly history but no one will ever tell the full story that I’ve asked at a few events. By everyone’s admission ohio lost badly on this issue. Is that worth keeping a grudge for all these years? Where has it gotten us? Besides being on the “right “ side of the issue and being “principled,” has legislation, lobbying, public awareness, etc. in ohio been positively affected by two completely separate gun rights organizations or would more have been accomplished by burying the hatchet?

I am genuinely asking, I am not trying to flame in any way. But I think a defeat like this should cause some introspection and drive to look for any tools that can be used to improve in the future. Bfa has the media contacts, the positive PR with the school teacher training, and teamed up with the NRA makes that a formidable combo. If not an alliance, at least a truce and open communication in my opinion would serve us better. We have many advantages too, dedicated and smart people, legislative relationships, an active forum and membership, past legislative success.

By the tone of this thread I realize this isn’t going to be well received. Just think on it over time. I’m more interested in long term success than agonizing over a settled situation, for better or worse.
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Re: HB 142 Duty to Inform

Postby TSiWRX » Fri Oct 27, 2017 3:07 pm

"Burying the hatchet" was mentioned more than once, in the "frank discussion" thread.......
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Re: HB 142 Duty to Inform

Postby Chuck » Fri Oct 27, 2017 4:09 pm

What would you have us do, grizzly?
Ain't activism fun?

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Re: HB 142 Duty to Inform

Postby JediSkipdogg » Fri Oct 27, 2017 4:19 pm

Ole_grizzly wrote:By the tone of this thread I realize this isn’t going to be well received. Just think on it over time. I’m more interested in long term success than agonizing over a settled situation, for better or worse.


I've been "in the know" with behind the stuff OFCC for many years. Actually, looking at my first email, 5 years now I've been on the coord list. I questioned the OFCC & BFA relationship when I first joined. I questioned why we don't work on bill's together. Seeing what has taken place I understand now why we don't. And unfortunately, without straight bashing them at every opportunity, it's hard to put out the bad info. I suggested we work together on the FASTER shooting program of theirs and reached out to them. They straight up turned us away and said it was their idea and they wanted to do it by themselves. I reached out to them on some bills with bad language and they simply said I was wrong. I think it was HB 495 as a big one that they missed a lot in and refused to listen to us on. Basically, they don't want anything to do with us and coord after coord has tried to reach out to them. They have even backdoored us on bills by having meetings we knew nothing about. Just wait till everyone sees where FnG 2018 is at, or well...not at. :|

BFA simply doesn't want to work with us on anything and we have tried. They continually tell us we are wrong and claim if we are right, they will just sue the cities. Yet as long as I have known BFA, I haven't seen them file a single lawsuit. They definitely have the cash to do it.
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Re: HB 142 Duty to Inform

Postby Ole_grizzly » Fri Oct 27, 2017 11:01 pm

Thanks Jedi for the information. Obviously very disheartening to hear that the gulf is so wide, but I’m glad to hear that attempts have been made. How recent was the last attempt? I know a couple bfa members and one of their leaders was at TDI a few weeks ago, and a discussion amongst participants started up how dumb it is that the two groups have such acrimony between them. No one understood why, and it was a reason one person said they didn’t join either group.

And Chuck, what would I do? I’d start by connecting with non leadership members of BFA, develop relationships, and try to learn what information is put out to their members by their leaders in regards to upcoming legislative efforts. I’d also learn their position on ofcc, because I’m sure they feel just as strongly as you do about old problems (and current ones sadly). We may find they’re upset about something that’s not true or mis-understood. Once we have more information, we figure out any areas where we have mutual interest, spread that message to both groups, and then with some bfa membership support (or at least a familiarity) make a formal approach to their leaders proposing to join forces on a singular issue.

This problem clearly won’t rectify itself easily, and maybe a full reconciliation is solidly naive. But I find it hard to believe that reasonable people that share common beliefs can’t get past unproductive feuds in the interest of advancing important issues. I’d also propose a clearing of the air session and committing to leaving the past in the past if both sides are willing to move forward cautiously together on narrow issues.

If I sound naive, I’m ok with it. They are not the enemy. On this notification issue there is clearly strong feeling here that they screwed up and took the wrong path here in this thread. I can’t see how they’d go to this much effort just to stick it to us, they may genuinely believe a compromise is all that could be done, or don’t feel as strongly as you do about the perils of notification. Regardless, our current approach left us without a seat at this table. Doubling down and saying screw them doesn’t seem as likely to achieve future results compared to making attempts to reconcile.
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Re: HB 142 Duty to Inform

Postby JediSkipdogg » Fri Oct 27, 2017 11:53 pm

Ole_grizzly wrote:Thanks Jedi for the information. Obviously very disheartening to hear that the gulf is so wide, but I’m glad to hear that attempts have been made. How recent was the last attempt? I know a couple bfa members and one of their leaders was at TDI a few weeks ago, and a discussion amongst participants started up how dumb it is that the two groups have such acrimony between them. No one understood why, and it was a reason one person said they didn’t join either group.


HB 142 is probably the most recent attempt. We were simply told that our concerns were not true and if they did happen, cities could just be sued for violating 9.68. OFCC sided against sub bill 142 and BFA sided for it. They didn't remain neutral, they actually were for it and saw no issue with it.
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Re: HB 142 Duty to Inform

Postby Mustang380gal » Sat Oct 28, 2017 6:32 am

JediSkipdogg wrote:
Ole_grizzly wrote:Thanks Jedi for the information. Obviously very disheartening to hear that the gulf is so wide, but I’m glad to hear that attempts have been made. How recent was the last attempt? I know a couple bfa members and one of their leaders was at TDI a few weeks ago, and a discussion amongst participants started up how dumb it is that the two groups have such acrimony between them. No one understood why, and it was a reason one person said they didn’t join either group.


HB 142 is probably the most recent attempt. We were simply told that our concerns were not true and if they did happen, cities could just be sued for violating 9.68. OFCC sided against sub bill 142 and BFA sided for it. They didn't remain neutral, they actually were for it and saw no issue with it.


The other recent issue was one that Werz identified-- that forced Ohio LEO to enforce federal law rather than the feds doing it, if I understood it correctly. Werz repeatedly told us that this was a bad idea, but BFA persisted. Our side won that one. But they never seemed to understand his concerns.

I was here during the split, and I know it was bad. It created a lot of pain and distrust on OFCC's part. That is water over the dam, and it can't be undone. The problem is that they are continuing to work against us on every turn, it seems. Their behavior now is the problem. They do not seem in any way interested in healing any of that. And, I have spoken to some of the non-leadership. They aren't interested in healing breeches, either. It's all OFCC's fault, according to them, and BFA was innocent, they say. That isn't helping.

So let me ask, do you go on BFA's forum or FB page and badger them to reconcile with us, or do you just badger us to reconcile with them?
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Re: HB 142 Duty to Inform

Postby Ole_grizzly » Sat Oct 28, 2017 7:32 am

Mustang, no I have not gone on their forums (not that they’re active anyways). I am trying to learn what may be possible, and help if I can. My attitude in life is not to blame other people when things don’t go your way. Doesn’t mean that everything’s within my control or other people’s actions don’t affect me, but when something doesn’t go my way, I try to take emotion out of it, weigh all the information and options I have, and try to make the best step forward I can.

And I’m sorry if you think I am badgering. Don’t be so sensitive all the time. All I see is two gun rights groups that disrespect each other, and we as Ohio citizens are worse off for it. I have been a member for at least 5 years here. There has been nothing but negativity towards them by the leadership. There have been comments by forum members that are more towards my point of view of finding a way to reconcile. At fun n guns, training events at tdi or just at ranges, most everyone who is aware of the two groups thinks it’s ridiculous we don’t work together. I am glad to hear from Jedi that attempts have been made, and I accept that the situation is worse than I’d want to believe. However, winning a battle about who’s right or who hurt who in the past does nothing for gun rights going forward.

Why I’m communicating about this is that Chuck has requested more dialog from the members. You can choose to think about what I say or dismiss it. Taking emotion out of things, and I am trying to be clear that this next sentence is not an attack, but if our top priority this year was notification repeal, we are now worse off today then we were a year ago. When things go that badly, worrying about past grudges, remembering all the wounds from previous interactions from BFA does not help towards achieving future goals.
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Re: HB 142 Duty to Inform

Postby JustaShooter » Sat Oct 28, 2017 8:52 am

Ole_grizzly, as has been mentioned we have reached out to BFA many times and through many channels and have been rebuffed every time. We have done so several times within the past year, and are either ignored or told to go away. If change is to happen, the next step must happen on BFA's side. I don't know what more we can do.

Ole_grizzly wrote:I’d start by connecting with non leadership members of BFA, develop relationships, and try to learn what information is put out to their members by their leaders in regards to upcoming legislative efforts.


We have done that, and in those cases where the non-admin members are not so anti-OFCC that they are willing to participate in a relationship and talk, what we find out is that BFA leadership ignores its members. They don't talk about upcoming legislative efforts, and don't take any advice from their members. This problem came to a head a couple of years ago when they were pushing *hard* for SB203 even though many very learned individuals (one a law l professor) were waving red flags about a couple of issues with the bill. They came out in the forum and essentially called the members children that needed to shut up and let the adults handle things. Since then, their forums have withered away to where it isn't unusual for a week to go by without a single post.

And, as Mustang380gal said, there are some members who are so rabidly anti-OFCC that you can't hold a conversation with them if they find out you are a member or pro OFCC. A great example of the vitriol they hold, there is a pro-BFA admin of a FB group called Ohio Concealed Carry (CCW) who deletes pro-OFCC posts whenever he sees them. I have had many of mine deleted, and just today they nuked a pro-OFCC post by Caleb Melton. I saw the post before it was deleted and the *only* thing that made it different than many other posts was that it praised OFCC for the work we've done.

Again, if change is to happen, the next step must happen on BFA's side. I don't know what more we can do.
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Re: HB 142 Duty to Inform

Postby Chuck » Sat Oct 28, 2017 9:42 am

Ole_grizzly wrote:And Chuck, what would I do? I’d start by connecting with non leadership members of BFA, develop relationships, and try to learn what information is put out to their members by their leaders in regards to upcoming legislative efforts. I’d also learn their position on ofcc, because I’m sure they feel just as strongly as you do about old problems (and current ones sadly). We may find they’re upset about something that’s not true or mis-understood. Once we have more information, we figure out any areas where we have mutual interest, spread that message to both groups, and then with some bfa membership support (or at least a familiarity) make a formal approach to their leaders proposing to join forces on a singular issue.



I do have relationships with non leadership members of Brand X. Aaron and Buckeye Dan run the shooting range where we had our machine gun shoot.
Several OFCC members went to Jon Husted's trap shoot at the same range.
That range is in my "group" of places I give my business to.
I myself have organized sidewalk rallies in Columbus with them, both leaders and nonleaders alike. If you look at their Facebook page, their cover picture is captioned:
"MAIG Rally - 5 People
BFA Anti-MAIG Rally - 100 people"
Want to guess who set that rally up?
(it wasn't a BFA rally at all,,,,)

When we reached out to the NRA about repealing notification, Hoenwarter (sp?) told us he wanted us to be the same as the state of Maine. (immediate notification)
When we reached out to BFA, they told us they agreed with the NRA.
They wouldn't come to the same meetings we did, and drove the results we got, even though they were invited.

What else do you think we should do?
Ain't activism fun?

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Re: HB 142 Duty to Inform

Postby Mustang380gal » Sat Oct 28, 2017 11:24 am

Ole_grizzly wrote:Mustang, no I have not gone on their forums (not that they’re active anyways). I am trying to learn what may be possible, and help if I can. My attitude in life is not to blame other people when things don’t go your way. Doesn’t mean that everything’s within my control or other people’s actions don’t affect me, but when something doesn’t go my way, I try to take emotion out of it, weigh all the information and options I have, and try to make the best step forward I can.

And I’m sorry if you think I am badgering. Don’t be so sensitive all the time. All I see is two gun rights groups that disrespect each other, and we as Ohio citizens are worse off for it. I have been a member for at least 5 years here. There has been nothing but negativity towards them by the leadership. There have been comments by forum members that are more towards my point of view of finding a way to reconcile. At fun n guns, training events at tdi or just at ranges, most everyone who is aware of the two groups thinks it’s ridiculous we don’t work together. I am glad to hear from Jedi that attempts have been made, and I accept that the situation is worse than I’d want to believe. However, winning a battle about who’s right or who hurt who in the past does nothing for gun rights going forward.

Why I’m communicating about this is that Chuck has requested more dialog from the members. You can choose to think about what I say or dismiss it. Taking emotion out of things, and I am trying to be clear that this next sentence is not an attack, but if our top priority this year was notification repeal, we are now worse off today then we were a year ago. When things go that badly, worrying about past grudges, remembering all the wounds from previous interactions from BFA does not help towards achieving future goals.


I am not worried about past grudges. I am doing what I can to make headway on restoring our firearms rights. I see that my efforts and the efforts of others here being hampered by politics that BFA and NRA are up to their necks in. We generally do not speak of BFA. I just don’t understand why some of you are like dogs with a bone on this subject, and insist that we are holding grudges and disrespecting them, and that the only way to further gun rights is to play nice with them. There are other groups that are much more aligned philosophically that would be better allies. I’d rather work with supportive allies than waste energy trying to fix what we can’t fix now. We may never be able to fix the breech if guys who are not in leadership now inherit the attitudes of current leaders.
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Re: HB 142 Duty to Inform

Postby 3FULLMAGS+1 » Sun Oct 29, 2017 12:14 am

JustaShooter wrote:Ole_grizzly, as has been mentioned we have reached out to BFA many times and through many channels and have been rebuffed every time. We have done so several times within the past year, and are either ignored or told to go away. If change is to happen, the next step must happen on BFA's side. I don't know what more we can do.

Ole_grizzly wrote:I’d start by connecting with non leadership members of BFA, develop relationships, and try to learn what information is put out to their members by their leaders in regards to upcoming legislative efforts.


We have done that, and in those cases where the non-admin members are not so anti-OFCC that they are willing to participate in a relationship and talk, what we find out is that BFA leadership ignores its members. They don't talk about upcoming legislative efforts, and don't take any advice from their members. This problem came to a head a couple of years ago when they were pushing *hard* for SB203 even though many very learned individuals (one a law l professor) were waving red flags about a couple of issues with the bill. They came out in the forum and essentially called the members children that needed to shut up and let the adults handle things. Since then, their forums have withered away to where it isn't unusual for a week to go by without a single post.

And, as Mustang380gal said, there are some members who are so rabidly anti-OFCC that you can't hold a conversation with them if they find out you are a member or pro OFCC. A great example of the vitriol they hold, there is a pro-BFA admin of a FB group called Ohio Concealed Carry (CCW) who deletes pro-OFCC posts whenever he sees them. I have had many of mine deleted, and just today they nuked a pro-OFCC post by Caleb Melton. I saw the post before it was deleted and the *only* thing that made it different than many other posts was that it praised OFCC for the work we've done.

Again, if change is to happen, the next step must happen on BFA's side. I don't know what more we can do.


If you want to experience the BFA hatred towards us yourself, post a comment over on Ohio Concealed Carry and tell them OFCC's the greatest gun rights organization on Ohio and why BFA doesn't want to work together on legislation with us>
I'll even take part in the discussion and see if the discussion stays or gets deleted.
Are you game, Grizz ?
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Re: HB 142 Duty to Inform

Postby steves 50de » Sun Oct 29, 2017 6:08 pm

Forget BFA, IMO we double our efforts on getting more members maybe have a meeting to share ideas on how to achieve a BIG increase in membership. IMO we are getting no where fast by licking the boots of BFA to like us :roll:

Focus on a new fund raising agenda. How about a friends of ofcc dinner and gun raffle. Just getting tired of what BFA thinks of us. :twisted:
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