HB 142 Duty to Inform

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JustaShooter
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Re: HB 142 Duty to Inform

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sd790 wrote:
JustaShooter wrote:
catfish86 wrote:I have several police for tax clients. I am pretty much told they don't fear the concealed carrier, its the other guys with guns they are worried about.
Unfortunately, their leadership and union organizations are left-leaning, generally anti-gun / anti-concealed carry, and make their presence known at the statehouse.
And we are right-leaning, pro-gun / pro-concealed carry, and make our presence known at the statehouse.
We do not wield anywhere near the same amount of influence (especially with Senators and the Governor), or the same green money. It's a shame, but it's true.

But, I know we caused a buzz at the statehouse on our legislative action days, so when it comes time for proponent testimony, *everyone that can* needs to participate, either in person or by letter. And, I'm guessing we will have additional legislative action days to press them (the Senate especially) even more.

So, get active. Call your state senator and representative. Write them - actual snail mail, pieces of paper, signed, stuffed in an envelope and mailed. Email them. Every time the legislation comes up, do it again. If everyone here did that, they would know how important this is, and maybe they would listen.
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Re: HB 142 Duty to Inform

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Just as an aside, before email was created and widely used, aides to both state and federal Representatives told me that telegrams were ALWAYS opened and carefully read, because the senders had obviously spent a little extra cash to get their attention. Money talks with politicians.
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Re: HB 142 Duty to Inform

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Concerning HB142: It's my understanding that if HB142 is passed and signed into law, we would still be required to truthfully answer any questions a LEO might ask us about firearms we might be carrying . . . is there a particular ORC section we can point to that requires this?

Zeko
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Chuck
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Re: HB 142 Duty to Inform

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zeko wrote:Concerning HB142: It's my understanding that if HB142 is passed and signed into law, we would still be required to truthfully answer any questions a LEO might ask us about firearms we might be carrying . . . is there a particular ORC section we can point to that requires this?

Zeko
ORC 2921.13

http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2921.13" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
2921.13 Falsification - in theft offense - to purchase firearm.
(A) No person shall knowingly make a false statement, or knowingly swear or affirm the truth of a false statement previously made, when any of the following applies:

(1) The statement is made in any official proceeding.

(2) The statement is made with purpose to incriminate another.

(3) The statement is made with purpose to mislead a public official in performing the public official's official function.

There's more at the link, but this covers what you're looking for I think
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Re: HB 142 Duty to Inform

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So if passed, you can't lie about it but you could refuse to answer?
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Re: HB 142 Duty to Inform

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WY_Not wrote:So if passed, you can't lie about it but you could refuse to answer?
I suppose there's a fifth amendment protection that would apply
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Re: HB 142 Duty to Inform

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Name, address, and birth date are the only things required if duty to inform is no longer in play.
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Re: HB 142 Duty to Inform

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WY_Not wrote:So if passed, you can't lie about it but you could refuse to answer?
Since the bill does not include a requirement to disclose when asked, I believe you are correct.
WY_Not wrote:Name, address, and birth date are the only things required if duty to inform is no longer in play.
And produce driver's license (and proof of insurance?), when driving.
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Re: HB 142 Duty to Inform

Post by zeko »

Thanks for the info concerning ORC 2921.13 . . . the "name, address, and DOB only" specification is contained in ORC 2921.29, which applies if one is suspected of a "criminal offense". So, it would seem that to use this immunity one would have to be already in considerable trouble.

I'm just trying to cover various arguments that are almost certain to come up if/when testimony for/against HB142 happens . . .

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Re: HB 142 Duty to Inform

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zeko wrote:Concerning HB142: It's my understanding that if HB142 is passed and signed into law, we would still be required to truthfully answer any questions a LEO might ask us about firearms we might be carrying . . . is there a particular ORC section we can point to that requires this?

Zeko
Despite the posts above, remember that you'd still be required to comply with any lawful order. Failure to do so is a 1st degree misdemeanor for first offense, and a fifth degree felony for future offenses. So after you refuse to answer the question about "do you have any weapons" and the LEO changes it to "tell me if you have any weapons" are you willing to bet that's not a lawful order? Pretty stiff penalty if you're wrong.

http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2923.12(B)(4)
If the person is stopped for a law enforcement purpose and is carrying a concealed handgun, knowingly disregard or fail to comply with any lawful order of any law enforcement officer given while the person is stopped, including, but not limited to, a specific order to the person to keep the person's hands in plain sight.
http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2923.16(E)(5)
Knowingly disregard or fail to comply with any lawful order of any law enforcement officer given while the motor vehicle is stopped, including, but not limited to, a specific order to the person to keep the person's hands in plain sight.
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Re: HB 142 Duty to Inform

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Then in DUI checkpoints, all they have to do is demand, "Tell me if you've been drinking!" And if you remain silent, you'll get arrested for failure to comply with a lawful order.

I'm sorry, but neither scenario passes the smell test. I cannot be compelled to testify against myself.
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Re: HB 142 Duty to Inform

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Javelin Man wrote:I cannot be compelled to testify against myself.
You are not testifying against yourself if you have not committed a crime, and possession of a loaded handgun in your vehicle is legal if you have a CHL, so no protection there.

That said, I agree, it does not seem like a demand to provide information to a LEO would be considered a lawful order. Just change the item being inquired about and see if it passes muster. Instead of "Tell me if you have any firearms in the car!", what if the question is "Tell me if you have any chewing gum in the car!" See, doesn't seem like a lawful order to me. But, who knows, maybe I'm wrong.
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Re: HB 142 Duty to Inform

Post by Javelin Man »

JustaShooter wrote:
Javelin Man wrote:I cannot be compelled to testify against myself.
You are not testifying against yourself if you have not committed a crime, and possession of a loaded handgun in your vehicle is legal if you have a CHL, so no protection there.

That said, I agree, it does not seem like a demand to provide information to a LEO would be considered a lawful order. Just change the item being inquired about and see if it passes muster. Instead of "Tell me if you have any firearms in the car!", what if the question is "Tell me if you have any chewing gum in the car!" See, doesn't seem like a lawful order to me. But, who knows, maybe I'm wrong.
Or "Tell me if you have any marijuana in the car!"
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Re: HB 142 Duty to Inform

Post by WestonDon »

I'd say the only way this question will be answered difinitively is via criminal court. If someone wants to be the test case then go for it with my blessing. As for me I'll just answer his questions and avoid the drama. There may well be an issue worthy of me challenging the legal system but this ain't it.
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Re: HB 142 Duty to Inform

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JustaShooter wrote:
Javelin Man wrote:I cannot be compelled to testify against myself.
You are not testifying against yourself if you have not committed a crime, and possession of a loaded handgun in your vehicle is legal if you have a CHL, so no protection there.

That said, I agree, it does not seem like a demand to provide information to a LEO would be considered a lawful order. Just change the item being inquired about and see if it passes muster. Instead of "Tell me if you have any firearms in the car!", what if the question is "Tell me if you have any chewing gum in the car!" See, doesn't seem like a lawful order to me. But, who knows, maybe I'm wrong.
"For officer protection" will not apply to chewing gum, but will apply to weapons.

Again, no guarantee from me that it'd be considered a "lawful order" but the only way to find out is to get arrested for it and roll your dice on the M1.
Javelin Man wrote:Or "Tell me if you have any marijuana in the car!"
As JustaShooter says, you have a right to not incriminate yourself. If whatever the officer is asking about is illegal, then you cannot be forced to incriminate yourself by replying.
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