"Allows the sale of firearms to active duty military members

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"Allows the sale of firearms to active duty military members

Postby Ring » Sat Mar 04, 2017 11:52 pm

law change...

Allows the sale of firearms to active duty military members without regard to their age. "under 21"

https://www.buckeyefirearms.org/changes ... ch-21-2017

i dont see how that will happen...

ATF holds the power over the FFL's and if ATF says 21, i dont see a FFL countering it...
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Re: "Allows the sale of firearms to active duty military mem

Postby JustaShooter » Sun Mar 05, 2017 7:37 am

Exactly - but this does allow sales from individuals even if FFLs are still prohibited by Federal law.
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Re: "Allows the sale of firearms to active duty military mem

Postby Brian D. » Sun Mar 05, 2017 7:48 am

JustaShooter wrote:Exactly - but this does allow sales from individuals even if FFLs are still prohibited by Federal law.


As an individual, how would you feel about making such a handgun sale, to an active duty military 18-20 year old, if you didn't know them personally? ( I'm not really aiming the question at you, specifically, but let's get your thoughts anyhoo.)

I'd be very leery that someone was trying to set me up, especially if this was at a gun show. The BATFE probably doesn't much care for this Ohio law change.
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Re: "Allows the sale of firearms to active duty military mem

Postby JustaShooter » Sun Mar 05, 2017 1:21 pm

Brian D. wrote:
JustaShooter wrote:Exactly - but this does allow sales from individuals even if FFLs are still prohibited by Federal law.


As an individual, how would you feel about making such a handgun sale, to an active duty military 18-20 year old, if you didn't know them personally? ( I'm not really aiming the question at you, specifically, but let's get your thoughts anyhoo.)

I'd be very leery that someone was trying to set me up, especially if this was at a gun show. The BATFE probably doesn't much care for this Ohio law change.


I generally don't sell to people unless I have at least some familiarity with them - at a minimum, through something like this forum, or vouched for by someone I know. So, I would not be comfortable making such a sale to a random person at a gun show, even though I am at least passing familiar with military ID and know how to tell if the card is for active duty and where to look for the date of birth.

On a related topic, the person must still be an Ohio resident to sell them a handgun, active duty military or not. As the military ID does not include that information, one would be wise to require some other proof of residence.
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Re: "Allows the sale of firearms to active duty military mem

Postby DontTreadOnMe » Sun Mar 05, 2017 6:41 pm

Here's what the law actually says:

Divisions (A)(1) and (2) of this section do not apply to the sale or furnishing of a handgun
to an active duty member of the armed forces of the United States who has received firearms
training that meets or exceeds the training requirements described in division (G)(1) of section
2923.125 of the Revised Code


Emphasis mine.

Do all branches include handgun training during basic? I'm pretty sure Air Force at least does not.
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Re: "Allows the sale of firearms to active duty military mem

Postby JustaShooter » Sun Mar 05, 2017 9:03 pm

DontTreadOnMe wrote:Here's what the law actually says:

Divisions (A)(1) and (2) of this section do not apply to the sale or furnishing of a handgun
to an active duty member of the armed forces of the United States who has received firearms
training that meets or exceeds the training requirements described in division (G)(1) of section
2923.125 of the Revised Code


Emphasis mine.

Do all branches include handgun training during basic? I'm pretty sure Air Force at least does not.

Good point. So, in addition to proof that they are active duty military, the would need to provide proof of training with a handgun sufficient to qualify for a CHL.
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Re: "Allows the sale of firearms to active duty military mem

Postby WY_Not » Mon Mar 06, 2017 8:42 am

Back in the 90's we got M-16 only as enlisted. I believe that officers get handgun. Can check with my sister if no one pipes in with the right answer and if anyone is interested.
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Re: "Allows the sale of firearms to active duty military mem

Postby sodbuster95 » Mon Mar 06, 2017 1:15 pm

WY_Not wrote:Back in the 90's we got M-16 only as enlisted. I believe that officers get handgun. Can check with my sister if no one pipes in with the right answer and if anyone is interested.


Depends on your MOS. Some enlisted soldiers train on multiple firearms (including handguns and shotguns), some only do M-4/M-16.
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Re: "Allows the sale of firearms to active duty military mem

Postby Brian D. » Mon Mar 06, 2017 2:36 pm

I posted on BFA's Facebook page that this part of the law change wasn't really very useful, they shouldn't tout it as such, and perhaps they should offer some further clarification. Unfortunately none of their "suits" got back to me, it's much like their forums, not busy or interactive.

For what it's worth I certainly wouldn't know a genuine active duty military ID from a fake one without doing some studying first. Presumably, military ID's probably get faked same as drivers licenses, for whatever illicit purposes.
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Re: "Allows the sale of firearms to active duty military mem

Postby WY_Not » Mon Mar 06, 2017 2:49 pm

True. MP/SP had pistols. Also betting the PJ's trained with all sorts of tools.
What I should have clarified was... Basic was carbine/rifle only.

sodbuster95 wrote:
WY_Not wrote:Back in the 90's we got M-16 only as enlisted. I believe that officers get handgun. Can check with my sister if no one pipes in with the right answer and if anyone is interested.


Depends on your MOS. Some enlisted soldiers train on multiple firearms (including handguns and shotguns), some only do M-4/M-16.
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Re: "Allows the sale of firearms to active duty military mem

Postby JustaShooter » Mon Mar 06, 2017 3:00 pm

Brian D. wrote:For what it's worth I certainly wouldn't know a genuine active duty military ID from a fake one without doing some studying first. Presumably, military ID's probably get faked same as drivers licenses, for whatever illicit purposes.

Agreed, on both counts - but I'm no better at detecting fake drivers licenses either. Requiring identification is about due diligence, doing what a reasonable person would/should do to prevent you from selling to someone you shouldn't, not about guaranteeing that you aren't.
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Re: "Allows the sale of firearms to active duty military mem

Postby docachna » Mon Mar 06, 2017 4:28 pm

JustaShooter wrote:
Brian D. wrote:For what it's worth I certainly wouldn't know a genuine active duty military ID from a fake one without doing some studying first. Presumably, military ID's probably get faked same as drivers licenses, for whatever illicit purposes.

Agreed, on both counts - but I'm no better at detecting fake drivers licenses either. Requiring identification is about due diligence, doing what a reasonable person would/should do to prevent you from selling to someone you shouldn't, not about guaranteeing that you aren't.


And that's what's dangerous about the "reasonable person" standard. Yours may not be the same as the prosecutor's, or the judge's (and it's the judge who will be instructing the jury as to the law, as well as ruling on motions before and during trial on admission / exclusion of evidence, among many other things).
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Re: "Allows the sale of firearms to active duty military mem

Postby schmieg » Mon Mar 06, 2017 11:20 pm

docachna wrote:
JustaShooter wrote:
Brian D. wrote:For what it's worth I certainly wouldn't know a genuine active duty military ID from a fake one without doing some studying first. Presumably, military ID's probably get faked same as drivers licenses, for whatever illicit purposes.

Agreed, on both counts - but I'm no better at detecting fake drivers licenses either. Requiring identification is about due diligence, doing what a reasonable person would/should do to prevent you from selling to someone you shouldn't, not about guaranteeing that you aren't.


And that's what's dangerous about the "reasonable person" standard. Yours may not be the same as the prosecutor's, or the judge's (and it's the judge who will be instructing the jury as to the law, as well as ruling on motions before and during trial on admission / exclusion of evidence, among many other things).

That's why you should hire competent counsel who can drill into the jury that you have no reason to be more of an expert on false ID's than they are.
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