HB 590 (Becker) - no immunity for posted businesses

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WY_Not
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Re: HB 590 (Becker) - no immunity for posted businesses

Post by WY_Not »

First part is good.

Making a business owner liable for the CHOICE of the carrier and the ACTIONS of the criminal is BS. Here's hoping that part gets chopped.
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Re: HB 590 (Becker) - no immunity for posted businesses

Post by WestonDon »

Somebody please school me. Why is it necessary for ORC to address the issue of liability re. prohibiting or permitting firearms in the first place. Does anybody really think such a law is going to be the last word in a civil suit for damages.
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Re: HB 590 (Becker) - no immunity for posted businesses

Post by M-Quigley »

WestonDon wrote:Somebody please school me. Why is it necessary for ORC to address the issue of liability re. prohibiting or permitting firearms in the first place. Does anybody really think such a law is going to be the last word in a civil suit for damages.


Licensed CCW has been the law in Ohio for quite some time now. Has anyone successfully been able to file a suit against a business r/t concealed carry, whether allowing or denying? I'm not aware of any, but then all I have access to is google, not lexxus or other databases.
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Re: HB 590 (Becker) - no immunity for posted businesses

Post by JediSkipdogg »

M-Quigley wrote:
WestonDon wrote:Somebody please school me. Why is it necessary for ORC to address the issue of liability re. prohibiting or permitting firearms in the first place. Does anybody really think such a law is going to be the last word in a civil suit for damages.


Licensed CCW has been the law in Ohio for quite some time now. Has anyone successfully been able to file a suit against a business r/t concealed carry, whether allowing or denying? I'm not aware of any, but then all I have access to is google, not lexxus or other databases.
In Ohio probably not. Other states may vary. The biggest one right now is Aurora Colorado. Cinemark won in that case after an increasing nearly $700,000 legal fees. The judge ordered the plaintiffs to pay the theater back, but so far Cinemark has not sought collection although the families said they would appeal. Would immunity have lessened that at all? Probably not since it's not an absolute type immunity. At least in Ohio there are still reasons that a business must abide by to be granted the immunity and that is something a long court case would create.
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Re: HB 590 (Becker) - no immunity for posted businesses

Post by M-Quigley »

JediSkipdogg wrote:
M-Quigley wrote:
WestonDon wrote:Somebody please school me. Why is it necessary for ORC to address the issue of liability re. prohibiting or permitting firearms in the first place. Does anybody really think such a law is going to be the last word in a civil suit for damages.


Licensed CCW has been the law in Ohio for quite some time now. Has anyone successfully been able to file a suit against a business r/t concealed carry, whether allowing or denying? I'm not aware of any, but then all I have access to is google, not lexxus or other databases.
In Ohio probably not. Other states may vary. The biggest one right now is Aurora Colorado. Cinemark won in that case after an increasing nearly $700,000 legal fees. The judge ordered the plaintiffs to pay the theater back, but so far Cinemark has not sought collection although the families said they would appeal. Would immunity have lessened that at all? Probably not since it's not an absolute type immunity. At least in Ohio there are still reasons that a business must abide by to be granted the immunity and that is something a long court case would create.
Although the Cinemark case is similar, if I remember correctly, the issue wasn't CCW but whether Cinemark should've reasonably known there could've been a problem during that movie and should've hired security. It was alleged that other theaters had taken measures, although I don't know if those theaters took measures just for that movie, or in general.

I suppose a case could be made if the movie poked fun at the prophet Mohammad. It didn't take a psychic to know something was likely to happen at the cartoon convention in Texas, for example. Except for that though, if someone tries to say a theater should've known something would happen in general might be a harder lift than merely saying a theater is denying patrons the ability to defend themselves.

I suppose if a lawyer had proof that the location of the attack was directly related to the place being a CPZ, then maybe, but that has only happened once that I'm aware of. (in that particular case the defendant was arrested before a mass murder happened anyway so no harm was done)
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Re: HB 590 (Becker) - no immunity for posted businesses

Post by Kenosis »

djthomas wrote:
DontTreadOnMe wrote:It does not state it applies to a person who actually consumes alcohol.
It doesn't need to. It says that a licensee who carries in violation of "this section" is not guilty of illegal possession of a firearm in a liquor establishment and is only subject to removal, blah blah blah. "This section" refers to 2923.121 as a whole. The only way for a licensee to carry in violation of section 2923.121 is to be drinking.
Nothing wrong with that.

This is a step in the right direction.
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Re: HB 590 (Becker) - no immunity for posted businesses

Post by Kenosis »

WestonDon wrote:Somebody please school me. Why is it necessary for ORC to address the issue of liability re. prohibiting or permitting firearms in the first place. Does anybody really think such a law is going to be the last word in a civil suit for damages.
There will never be a "last word". Not ever. Please do not look for one.
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Re: HB 590 (Becker) - no immunity for posted businesses

Post by walnut red »

Kenosis wrote:
WestonDon wrote:Somebody please school me. Why is it necessary for ORC to address the issue of liability re. prohibiting or permitting firearms in the first place. Does anybody really think such a law is going to be the last word in a civil suit for damages.
There will never be a "last word". Not ever. Please do not look for one.
Addressing the issue if liability is needed because at this time business owners are explicitly excluded from taking responsibility for their actions when it comes to banning CCW. We don't need a big, new bill to fix this, just a revision striking that warning to the original law. That way no one is saying you can't make a decision regarding your own property, just that you have to accept responsibility for that decision.
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Re: HB 590 (Becker) - no immunity for posted businesses

Post by WY_Not »

And that liability and responsibility for that decision should rest with the CHL holder that CHOOSES to disarm and enter said business. Heaven forbid THEY should accept responsibility for THEIR decision. :evil:
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Re: HB 590 (Becker) - no immunity for posted businesses

Post by JustJack »

WY_Not wrote:And that liability and responsibility for that decision should rest with the CHL holder that CHOOSES to disarm and enter said business. Heaven forbid THEY should accept responsibility for THEIR decision. :evil:
While that is a valid point WY_Not, what does one do when you HAVE to go into said business? Here in Findlay I can choose between two Walmart's, 2 Great Scot's, 2 Kroger's, and a Meijer, plus Aldis's and a few mom & pops to go grocery shopping, but not everybody has that choice. I used to live in a town that had 1 grocery store, what if they posted? I have to choose between eating and being able to defend myself if necessary. I used to have to go to Kroger to pay my gas bill because Colombia Gas closed their office and it was before online payments. What if Kroger had posted? I can't defend myself because I have to pay my gas bill?
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Re: HB 590 (Becker) - no immunity for posted businesses

Post by troy bilt »

JustJack wrote:
WY_Not wrote:And that liability and responsibility for that decision should rest with the CHL holder that CHOOSES to disarm and enter said business. Heaven forbid THEY should accept responsibility for THEIR decision. :evil:
While that is a valid point WY_Not, what does one do when you HAVE to go into said business? Here in Findlay I can choose between two Walmart's, 2 Great Scot's, 2 Kroger's, and a Meijer, plus Aldis's and a few mom & pops to go grocery shopping, but not everybody has that choice. I used to live in a town that had 1 grocery store, what if they posted? I have to choose between eating and being able to defend myself if necessary. I used to have to go to Kroger to pay my gas bill because Colombia Gas closed their office and it was before online payments. What if Kroger had posted? I can't defend myself because I have to pay my gas bill?
If you agree to disarm in order to do business with non government thats your deal. If government disarms you in order to do business with them then there is a problem.
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Re: HB 590 (Becker) - no immunity for posted businesses

Post by JediSkipdogg »

troy bilt wrote:
JustJack wrote:
WY_Not wrote:And that liability and responsibility for that decision should rest with the CHL holder that CHOOSES to disarm and enter said business. Heaven forbid THEY should accept responsibility for THEIR decision. :evil:
While that is a valid point WY_Not, what does one do when you HAVE to go into said business? Here in Findlay I can choose between two Walmart's, 2 Great Scot's, 2 Kroger's, and a Meijer, plus Aldis's and a few mom & pops to go grocery shopping, but not everybody has that choice. I used to live in a town that had 1 grocery store, what if they posted? I have to choose between eating and being able to defend myself if necessary. I used to have to go to Kroger to pay my gas bill because Colombia Gas closed their office and it was before online payments. What if Kroger had posted? I can't defend myself because I have to pay my gas bill?
If you agree to disarm in order to do business with non government thats your deal. If government disarms you in order to do business with them then there is a problem.
Well said and I agree. Nobody forces one to live where they live. It's a CHOICE and with that CHOICE you CHOOSE what is around you as well. There's reason none of us on here live in California or plan on it. I turned down a hefty paying job because it was in California. It was a choice I made between keeping my rights or getting paid well.

I understand moving is not cheap (I'm in the process of doing it myself right now) but if one lives in an area where there is one grocery store and they post, that is a choice they have made. They can choose to drive further or choose to disarm. NOTHING or NOBODY is forcing them to go inside that grocery store.

Now, as troy said, government buildings, that's a different story and one I will say should not be posted. However, if we start tearing down private business rights more than we already do, then we just keep destroying America and saying it's alright for the government to control our lives.

If a business wants to build without wheelchair access, let them. If they don't want to make a cake for someone, let them refuse. If they don't want to accept certain people in their business, let them. Then let the people protest and dictate if that business will fail or not.
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Re: HB 590 (Becker) - no immunity for posted businesses

Post by WY_Not »

Put it in an envelope with a check, and mail it.
JustJack wrote:
WY_Not wrote:And that liability and responsibility for that decision should rest with the CHL holder that CHOOSES to disarm and enter said business. Heaven forbid THEY should accept responsibility for THEIR decision. :evil:
While that is a valid point WY_Not, what does one do when you HAVE to go into said business? Here in Findlay I can choose between two Walmart's, 2 Great Scot's, 2 Kroger's, and a Meijer, plus Aldis's and a few mom & pops to go grocery shopping, but not everybody has that choice. I used to live in a town that had 1 grocery store, what if they posted? I have to choose between eating and being able to defend myself if necessary. I used to have to go to Kroger to pay my gas bill because Colombia Gas closed their office and it was before online payments. What if Kroger had posted? I can't defend myself because I have to pay my gas bill?
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Re: HB 590 (Becker) - no immunity for posted businesses

Post by walnut red »

No one is saying property owners cannot post if they want. I'm just saying that the artificial liability protection that is in the current law needs removed.
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Re: HB 590 (Becker) - no immunity for posted businesses

Post by WY_Not »

And why should they be liable either way? They have no responsibility to keep you safe from other individuals. Their responsibility is to ensure that their property does not harm you. It is the responsibility of all individuals to not harm others. It is the responsibility of all individual to protect themselves.

It is the criminal that chose to break the law. It is the criminal that is harming someone. Let the criminal be held liable for their actions.

It is the CHL holder that chose to enter a store knowing that his safety might be at risk. Let the CHL holder take responsibility for their own choices/actions.

It is all a matter of choices. This part of the bill is nothing more than one group using the force of government to infringe upon another group. You are right, you have a right to carry and defend yourself and others. The property owner has the right to control and use his property as he sees fit. Your right does not trump his. To demand that one person give up their rights to accommodate you is no different than the children who did not get their way this election cycle so they are going to shout, stomp, and break things/people till they get their way.

As for government buildings? Agreed. Except for a few rare occasions, they should not be CPZs. If they are so afraid of the law abiding citizens who might be armed then perhaps they should change the way in which they govern.
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