New Legislation - Domestic Violence Victims

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WestonDon
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Re: New Legislation - Domestic Violence Victims

Post by WestonDon »

It is by no means certain that this law, even with your proposed additions, would have prevented this tragedy. The only thing that 100% would have prevented it would be to lock the husband up without due process. What the heck? as long as you're going to trash due process, civil rights, and 200 plus years of constitutional precedent ya' might as well go all the way.

I had a feeling where this thread was headed.
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I am pro-gun. I have a CCW and carry everyday, but...................................
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Re: New Legislation - Domestic Violence Victims

Post by Mustang380gal »

WestonDon wrote:It is by no means certain that this law, even with your proposed additions, would have prevented this tragedy. The only thing that 100% would have prevented it would be to lock the husband up without due process. What the heck? as long as you're going to trash due process, civil rights, and 200 plus years of constitutional precedent ya' might as well go all the way.

I had a feeling where this thread was headed.
StiltzM109R wrote:
I am pro-gun. I have a CCW and carry everyday, but...................................
As my favorite radio show host says, everything before the but is b. s.

What makes this crime so special that it would rate all this trampling of one's rights? If they start doing it for this one, they will do it for all. No way does that need to happen.
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Re: New Legislation - Domestic Violence Victims

Post by Werz »

Handling domestic violence issues within the legal system is an extremely difficult proposition due to the complex and unpredictable nature of problem. That has little or nothing to do with the law, the police, the prosecutors, and the courts, and everything to do with the dysfunctional and paradoxical relationship between the abuser and the abused. Anyone who looks at the problem from the outside and thinks that he or she has the answer is woefully without a clue.

Depriving someone of the right to keep and bear arms without due process of law is an extremely poor solution.
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Re: New Legislation - Domestic Violence Victims

Post by curmudgeon3 »

The Supremes are looking for a ninth member.
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Re: New Legislation - Domestic Violence Victims

Post by StiltzM109R »

I'm sorry you guys feel the way you do. I understand the right to bear arms, but it needs some controls around it for situations like this. All I tried to do was bring up a topic to see if we could head in the direction of a solution. For those of you who say this is about the relationship between the abused and the abuser, you cannot blame the abused. I can say that because I have been on that side of the fence. Instead of always worrying about infringement on your rights, try to look from the victim's side or victim's family side.

No I don't support full fledged gun rights for everyone. I don't support FTF transfers in Ohio and I don't support Open Carry, period. I agree with you should need a permit to carry. I also agree with confiscation of someone's firearms if they are abusive or violent. Thanks everyone for creating a negative thread instead of trying turn this in a positive direction and work together on ideas of a solution.
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Re: New Legislation - Domestic Violence Victims

Post by WY_Not »

Not to blame the abused but they are individuals who have free will and as such ultimately they must indeed accept responsibility for their own actions and their own safety. As for solutions, they already exist. Like most proposed gun laws this proposal does little to protect the victim and much to harm innocents. No law will deter a criminal, they simply burden the law-abiding.

I am looking at it from the victim's side. If I am being harmed I will defend myself and take such actions as to ensure it does not continue or happen again. If local authorities will not listen then I'll go over their heads and I will keep doing so until someone does listen.

As for creating a negative thread... you did that all on your own by talking about infringing on people's rights, by talking about confiscating property without due process, by talking about bypassing due process completely, etc. Thank you for revealing your true colors in your last post.

And with that, thank you for giving the heads up on such an odious bill. I'll be certain to keep an eye out for it and speak out against it at every possible opportunity.
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Re: New Legislation - Domestic Violence Victims

Post by JustaShooter »

StiltzM109R wrote:For those of you who say this is about the relationship between the abused and the abuser, you cannot blame the abused.
And yet:
StiltzM109R wrote:
JustaShooter wrote:In one of the situations I'm familiar with, the female had friends who lied on her behalf - "I seen it, I seen him do it!" - and without anyone to corroborate his version of events, it was all but over with.
In a situation such as this, he could've chose to break the relationship off at any time. Why guys choose crazy girls, I will never understand.
He was abused by virtue of her actions wielding the machinery of the government against him, but it was his fault. But you cannot blame the abused. Got it.
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Re: New Legislation - Domestic Violence Victims

Post by 3FULLMAGS+1 »

Stitz:......The problem I see with this is that the "accused" loses their rights ...."BEFORE".... they are found guilty. THAT is the problem with this legislation. The "rights" of the accused are just as important as those "rights" of the victim. It has to work that way or there are going to be innocent people getting caught up in the legal system through no fault of their own. Sure they may be vindicated in the end if their innocent, and yes I said "may", as there are those who are found guilty of some crime that they "didn't" commit also,(another subject), but you just can't strip people of their rights before they are found guilty, unless, "possibly", they are caught in the act. Ask someone who's ever been accused of something they didn't do that got raked over the coals before they were found innocent. It's not a place you want to find yourself in.

As for your anti comment about open carry.....maybe I don't think you should be aloud to conceal, (not really, but I'm just making a point), get my drift. Not being allowed to carry in either form is infringement also........"P E R I O D".

As for your comment about us needing a lic. to carry......another infringement....."P E R I O D".


I think you mentioned one or two other "infringements" that you seem to think were ok, but I'll leave it at that.

And no , we are not trying to turn this discussion into a negative one. We are just trying to point out the obvious flaws in your thinking here. There have been terrible consequences arise out of laws put on the books that were put there out of "good intentions", not to mention those laws that were put there with "ill" intentions and "bad" agendas. Think about it!
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Re: New Legislation - Domestic Violence Victims

Post by Brian D. »

StiltzM109R wrote:

I don't support FTF transfers in Ohio and I don't support Open Carry, period. I agree with you should need a permit to carry.
Just with those statements, you went crossways with I'd say a huge majority of participants here. We aren't JUST about concealed carry. Ans as to preemptively stripping a law abiding gun owner of their rights and due process based on the uncorroborated word of a possibly vindictive spouse? That pretty much lost everybody else who was giving your views some benefit of the doubt.
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Re: New Legislation - Domestic Violence Victims

Post by Tourist »

StiltzM109R wrote:I'm sorry you guys feel the way you do. I understand the right to bear arms, but it needs some controls around it for situations like this. All I tried to do was bring up a topic to see if we could head in the direction of a solution. For those of you who say this is about the relationship between the abused and the abuser, you cannot blame the abused. I can say that because I have been on that side of the fence. Instead of always worrying about infringement on your rights, try to look from the victim's side or victim's family side.

No I don't support full fledged gun rights for everyone. I don't support FTF transfers in Ohio and I don't support Open Carry, period. I agree with you should need a permit to carry. I also agree with confiscation of someone's firearms if they are abusive or violent. Thanks everyone for creating a negative thread instead of trying turn this in a positive direction and work together on ideas of a solution.
We are always open for a rational discussion on this forum. I completely disagree with your position, but am always ready to listen.

As an aside, do you have your license to produce speech (verbal or written) so we can verify your rights? Maybe we don't believe that all people should be able to speak, and that is specially true if we disagree with them. Also if we complain about your comments, should your right to free speech be terminated without any due process just because we think it may be abusive?

Maybe the above paragraph will demonstrate the reason we disagree with your position?
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Re: New Legislation - Domestic Violence Victims

Post by WestonDon »

I understand the OP has a personal connection to the subject victim. That is certain to affect one's perspective on the subject. That is one of the reasons why we have a constitution to guide us in making and enforcing our laws. As has been pointed out earlier we already have some ill conceived laws passed in the emotional rush to "do something" that have had unintended and disastrous consequences.
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Re: New Legislation - Domestic Violence Victims

Post by charliej47 »

:shock: Do as I say not as I do!
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Re: New Legislation - Domestic Violence Victims

Post by rickt »

This bill was just introduced yesterday.
H. B. No. 494 - Representatives Antonio, Boyd.
Cosponsors: Representatives Strahorn, Celebrezze, Sykes, Howse, Lepore-Hagan, Slesnick, Fedor, Johnson, G., Clyde.

To amend sections 2151.34, 2903.13, 2903.21, 2903.214, 2919.25, 2919.26, 2923.13, and 3113.31 and to enact section 2923.132 of the Revised Code to require a court that issues a protection order to determine if the respondent is prohibited from carrying or possessing a firearm, to require a court to determine whether an offender who has been convicted of specified offenses is prohibited from carrying or possessing a firearm, and to require a respondent or offender who the court determines is prohibited from carrying or possessing a firearm to transfer all firearms in the person's possession to a law enforcement agency or a federally licensed firearms dealer.
https://www.legislature.ohio.gov/legisl ... 131-HB-494
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Re: New Legislation - Domestic Violence Victims

Post by DontTreadOnMe »

This bill as written does appear to restrict confiscation/transfer orders only to people subject to court orders where they received notice and had an opportunity to appear. In other words, not for ex parte orders.

It adds Aggravated Menacing to the firearms disqualifiers under 2923.13, and as that doesn't require the use or attempted use of physical force or threat with a deadly weapon, it would expand firearms disqualifiers beyond current Federal prohibition scope. I don't think I can support that part of the bill.

The new 2923.132 requires a person subject to such an order to transfer their firearms to either a law enforcement agency or federally licensed firearms dealer. It doesn't allow for transfer to a non-FFL 3rd party as currently allowed by Supreme Court precedent Henderson v. United States. I believe I could support this provision if it were amended to be fully in line with that SCOTUS precedent. The timelines in this provision are extremely narrow (24 hrs for transfer of all firearms .. no allowance for business days / holidays , etc.).
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Re: New Legislation - Domestic Violence Victims

Post by FormerNavy »

All I needed to see was the list of sponsors and co-sponsors to know that I am not for this bill ever seeing the light of day.
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