OSU Lawsuit Dismissed ... Another Solution

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Werz
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OSU Lawsuit Dismissed ... Another Solution

Post by Werz »

OK. The OSU lawsuit (Franklin County Common Pleas Court, Case No. 14 CV 006927) has been voluntarily dismissed by the plaintiffs, including Ohioans for Concealed Carry. I have already speculated as to the reason, but that is neither here nor there because I don't expect anyone to tell me honestly whether I'm right or not. I do know this: The Ohio State University argued that their Code of Student Conduct did not violate R.C. 9.68 because it constitutes state law. I don't consider that a very strong argument, but it could be one which gets some traction with the right judges. So do we deal with that by filing a series of lawsuits every time they create a new student rule, constantly searching for a live plaintiff who will only be a student for a few years, just so we can establish standing to file suit? Or do we attack the problem at the root and deprive state universities of their ability to do this in the first place? I propose the following amendment to the Ohio Revised Code, an amendment which is short and simple:
3345.21
The board of trustees of any college or university which receives any state funds in support thereof, shall regulate the use of the grounds, buildings, equipment, and facilities of such college or university and the conduct of the students, staff, faculty, and visitors to the campus so that law and order are maintained and the college or university may pursue its educational objectives and programs in an orderly manner. The board of trustees of each such college or university shall adopt rules for the conduct of the students, faculty, visitors, and staff, and may provide for the ejection from college or university property, suspension or expulsion of a person who violates such regulations. All such rules shall be published in a manner reasonably designed to come to the attention of, and be available to, all faculty, staff, visitors, and students. The board of trustees shall provide for the administration and enforcement of its rules and may authorize the use of state university law enforcement officers provided for in section 3345.04 of the Revised Code to assist in enforcing the rules and the law on the campus of the college or university. The board of trustees, or appropriate officials of such college or university when the authority to do so has been delegated by the board of trustees, may seek the assistance of other appropriate law enforcement officers to enforce the rules and to enforce laws for the preservation of good order on the campus, and to prevent the disruption of the educational functions of the college or university. The rules of the board of trustees shall not restrict freedom of speech nor the right of persons on the campus to assemble peacefully, nor the right of persons on campus to keep and bear arms.
That amendment would best be tied to a bill for funding or tax exemptions to state universities, thus adding incentive for the universities to relinquish a limited portion of their ability to regulate student conduct. This provision would leave intact all the provisions under the Revised Code which grant a special status to colleges and universities regarding the possession and carry of firearms. All it would do is prevent state universities from promulgating rules to punish students for the same conduct which is lawful for non-students. Some will say that nothing short of full-fledged campus concealed carry is acceptable. They can kiss my ... Those people know that is not currently feasible, and this amendment would give us a foot in the door, as well as accomplishing more than any lawsuit can. I have already emailed this proposal to my state representative.

There is likely to be pushback, and one Chicken Little narrative is likely to be that it would open the door to students carrying bowie knives, machetes, swords, battle axes, and all sorts of scary weapons. Fine. Then change the wording to something a bit longer, which mirrors R.C. 9.68: "nor the right of persons on campus to own, possess, purchase, sell, transfer, transport, store, or keep any firearm, part of a firearm, its components, and its ammunition." That would neatly remove from the universities the ability to claim "state law" for any rule of student conduct which is contrary to the protections of R.C. 9.68.

And if the Ohio General Assembly is too timid to go up against the behemoth of The Ohio State University, then maybe it's time for another open carry event at the Statehouse. I'm not talking the annual Patriot's Day celebration, but an event with a cause. And imagine how convenient it will be to enlist students from Ohio State University, not only those who are old enough the carry a concealed handgun, but all those over 18 years of age, who can bring their old single-shot .22 rimfires from home and walk with the rest of us.
"An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life."
-- Robert A. Heinlein, Beyond This Horizon
"Remember that protecting our gun rights still boils down to keeping a majority in the electorate, and that our daily activities can have the impact of being ambassadors for the gun culture ..."
-- BobK
Open carry is a First Amendment exercise.
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Re: OSU Lawsuit Dismissed ... Another Solution

Post by Brian D. »

I thought maybe you needed some time to put this idea together, that was dang sure fast enough for me!
Quit worrying, hide your gun well, shut up, and CARRY that handgun!

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Re: OSU Lawsuit Dismissed ... Another Solution

Post by AlanM »

WOW! twelve words and a comma with absolutely GREAT positive results.
I'm seriously impressed.
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Re: OSU Lawsuit Dismissed ... Another Solution

Post by MyWifeSaidYes »

The Ohio Constitution gives only the General Assembly (via bills) and the electors (via petitions) the power to pass laws.

Laws create and govern state offices, departments, agencies and instrumentalities. Laws even govern the Governor.

There are NO STATE LAWS allowing ANY state officer, department, agency or instrumentality TO ENACT LAWS.

There ARE state laws that allow these entities to enact and promulgate RULES and REGULATIONS.

The Ohio Administrative Code is a compilation of such RULES and REGULATIONS ALLOWED BY LAW, but they are NOT LAWS.


I am not a lawyer (thank heavens) but surely that's a valid argument, isn't it?



On a related note, I hereby volunteer to attend OSU as a student, if needed.

On my own dime. :shock:
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Re: OSU Lawsuit Dismissed ... Another Solution

Post by Chuck »

MyWifeSaidYes wrote:On my own dime.

You'll ruin your reputation,,,,
Ain't activism fun?

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Re: OSU Lawsuit Dismissed ... Another Solution

Post by Werz »

MyWifeSaidYes wrote:The Ohio Constitution gives only the General Assembly (via bills) and the electors (via petitions) the power to pass laws.

Laws create and govern state offices, departments, agencies and instrumentalities. Laws even govern the Governor.

There are NO STATE LAWS allowing ANY state officer, department, agency or instrumentality TO ENACT LAWS.

There ARE state laws that allow these entities to enact and promulgate RULES and REGULATIONS.

The Ohio Administrative Code is a compilation of such RULES and REGULATIONS ALLOWED BY LAW, but they are NOT LAWS.

I am not a lawyer (thank heavens) but surely that's a valid argument, isn't it?
That is, indeed, a very valid argument. But a lawyer will tell you that both sides of a case will often have valid arguments, based on different precedent. Read OSU's argument. I think it's weak, but it might be enough to sell a Common Pleas Court judge. I don't know for sure that's what happened, but at this point, nobody has said otherwise, despite the fact that the pointy sticks have been deployed, both here and on Facebook.

And if that is the case, where does it leave us? Do we wait for another live plaintiff to give us standing to file suit? Do we then file a lawsuit and wait for an answer, a motion to dismiss, a motion for summary judgment, etc.? Then do we appeal it to the Tenth District Court of Appeals, and subsequently, to the Ohio Supreme Court? And do we repeat this process with every new rule of student conduct and every state university?

Or do we simply go to the Ohio General Assembly and ask them to deprive state universities of the power to promulgate rules of student conduct on this particular subject matter? The General Assembly placed those limitations on rules of student conduct regulating the constitutional freedoms of speech and assembly, right? And didn't they prohibit political subdivisions of the state from promulgating any "ordinance, rule, or regulation" on this subject matter, punishable by an award of costs and attorney fees, and despite the constitutional Home Rule doctrine? Why should it be different for state universities? And since our largest state university, through the Ohio Attorney General, has claimed, in writing, that it has the power to enact "state law" on this subject matter, shouldn't the General Assembly make a statement that they - the entity answerable to the voters - are the only ones who can legislate such rules?

Those are just some of the public policy arguments which can be made. And if those arguments are not compelling enough, there's also the sidewalk of the Statehouse.
"An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life."
-- Robert A. Heinlein, Beyond This Horizon
"Remember that protecting our gun rights still boils down to keeping a majority in the electorate, and that our daily activities can have the impact of being ambassadors for the gun culture ..."
-- BobK
Open carry is a First Amendment exercise.
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Re: OSU Lawsuit Dismissed ... Another Solution

Post by troy bilt »

So is this a good time for a hunter to open carry during deer gun season?
I have struggled with dyslexia my entire life. I know it's spelled wrong but thanks for pointing it out.
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Re: OSU Lawsuit Dismissed ... Another Solution

Post by dynamike »

Werz wrote:OK. The OSU lawsuit (Franklin County Common Pleas Court, Case No. 14 CV 006927) has been voluntarily dismissed by the plaintiffs, including Ohioans for Concealed Carry. I have already speculated as to the reason, but that is neither here nor there because I don't expect anyone to tell me honestly whether I'm right or not. I do know this: The Ohio State University argued that their Code of Student Conduct did not violate R.C. 9.68 because it constitutes state law. I don't consider that a very strong argument, but it could be one which gets some traction with the right judges. So do we deal with that by filing a series of lawsuits every time they create a new student rule, constantly searching for a live plaintiff who will only be a student for a few years, just so we can establish standing to file suit? Or do we attack the problem at the root and deprive state universities of their ability to do this in the first place? I propose the following amendment to the Ohio Revised Code, an amendment which is short and simple:
3345.21
The board of trustees of any college or university which receives any state funds in support thereof, shall regulate the use of the grounds, buildings, equipment, and facilities of such college or university and the conduct of the students, staff, faculty, and visitors to the campus so that law and order are maintained and the college or university may pursue its educational objectives and programs in an orderly manner. The board of trustees of each such college or university shall adopt rules for the conduct of the students, faculty, visitors, and staff, and may provide for the ejection from college or university property, suspension or expulsion of a person who violates such regulations. All such rules shall be published in a manner reasonably designed to come to the attention of, and be available to, all faculty, staff, visitors, and students. The board of trustees shall provide for the administration and enforcement of its rules and may authorize the use of state university law enforcement officers provided for in section 3345.04 of the Revised Code to assist in enforcing the rules and the law on the campus of the college or university. The board of trustees, or appropriate officials of such college or university when the authority to do so has been delegated by the board of trustees, may seek the assistance of other appropriate law enforcement officers to enforce the rules and to enforce laws for the preservation of good order on the campus, and to prevent the disruption of the educational functions of the college or university. The rules of the board of trustees shall not restrict freedom of speech nor the right of persons on the campus to assemble peacefully, nor the right of persons on campus to keep and bear arms.
That amendment would best be tied to a bill for funding or tax exemptions to state universities, thus adding incentive for the universities to relinquish a limited portion of their ability to regulate student conduct. This provision would leave intact all the provisions under the Revised Code which grant a special status to colleges and universities regarding the possession and carry of firearms. All it would do is prevent state universities from promulgating rules to punish students for the same conduct which is lawful for non-students. Some will say that nothing short of full-fledged campus concealed carry is acceptable. They can kiss my ... Those people know that is not currently feasible, and this amendment would give us a foot in the door, as well as accomplishing more than any lawsuit can. I have already emailed this proposal to my state representative.

There is likely to be pushback, and one Chicken Little narrative is likely to be that it would open the door to students carrying bowie knives, machetes, swords, battle axes, and all sorts of scary weapons. Fine. Then change the wording to something a bit longer, which mirrors R.C. 9.68: "nor the right of persons on campus to own, possess, purchase, sell, transfer, transport, store, or keep any firearm, part of a firearm, its components, and its ammunition." That would neatly remove from the universities the ability to claim "state law" for any rule of student conduct which is contrary to the protections of R.C. 9.68.

And if the Ohio General Assembly is too timid to go up against the behemoth of The Ohio State University, then maybe it's time for another open carry event at the Statehouse. I'm not talking the annual Patriot's Day celebration, but an event with a cause. And imagine how convenient it will be to enlist students from Ohio State University, not only those who are old enough the carry a concealed handgun, but all those over 18 years of age, who can bring their old single-shot .22 rimfires from home and walk with the rest of us.
This is actually something we worked with Senator Kris Jordan and Rep (at the time) Joe Uecker to introduce. I actually have a bill drafted through LSC for such a change. However, the snail's pace at which things moved caused us to believe that a court challenge would be more effective.

I cannot confirm or deny that your previous speculation is an accurate representation of the case. We (SCC) won't go into specifics in a public forum. We will be refiling a stronger case soon.

WRT an open carry demonstration on campus, we are amenable to such an idea and always have been. We tried to work with folks in the past. We got push back when we asked for emails with headers intact (that we later obtained through a public records request) that promised no retribution against participating students before we through our weight behind such an event.

We got concealed carry years ago by such walks. They were executed with precision and were massive. It can happen again.

But we all need to be on the same page. Rogue activists will hurt us. Just look to California.
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Re: OSU Lawsuit Dismissed ... Another Solution

Post by BB62 »

dynamike wrote:...WRT an open carry demonstration on campus, we are amenable to such an idea and always have been. We tried to work with folks in the past. We got push back when we asked for emails with headers intact (that we later obtained through a public records request) that promised no retribution against participating students before we through our weight behind such an event.

We got concealed carry years ago by such walks. They were executed with precision and were massive. It can happen again.

But we all need to be on the same page. Rogue activists will hurt us. Just look to California.
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

I haven't read a better fairy tale in a long, long time.
Yes, I do believe in open carry. An openly armed man is clear in his intentions. Concealed carriers are sneaks and skulkers and elitist, boot licking, political contribution making, running dog lackies of The Man. <wink> (thx grumpycoconut - OpenCarry.org)

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Re: OSU Lawsuit Dismissed ... Another Solution

Post by dynamike »

BB62 wrote:
dynamike wrote:...WRT an open carry demonstration on campus, we are amenable to such an idea and always have been. We tried to work with folks in the past. We got push back when we asked for emails with headers intact (that we later obtained through a public records request) that promised no retribution against participating students before we through our weight behind such an event.

We got concealed carry years ago by such walks. They were executed with precision and were massive. It can happen again.

But we all need to be on the same page. Rogue activists will hurt us. Just look to California.
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

I haven't read a better fairy tale in a long, long time.
Jeff,

You're going to believe what you've convinced yourself to be true. I could fret over it, or I can choose to use my energy to move the ball downfield.

I wish you all the best.

Mike
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Re: OSU Lawsuit Dismissed ... Another Solution

Post by BB62 »

dynamike wrote:
BB62 wrote:
dynamike wrote:...WRT an open carry demonstration on campus, we are amenable to such an idea and always have been. We tried to work with folks in the past. We got push back when we asked for emails with headers intact (that we later obtained through a public records request) that promised no retribution against participating students before we through our weight behind such an event.

We got concealed carry years ago by such walks. They were executed with precision and were massive. It can happen again.

But we all need to be on the same page. Rogue activists will hurt us. Just look to California.
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

I haven't read a better fairy tale in a long, long time.
Jeff,

You're going to believe what you've convinced yourself to be true. I could fret over it, or I can choose to use my energy to move the ball downfield.

I wish you all the best.

Mike
Just keep telling your tales, Mike - you're well-practiced at that sort of thing.

All the best, buddy.
Yes, I do believe in open carry. An openly armed man is clear in his intentions. Concealed carriers are sneaks and skulkers and elitist, boot licking, political contribution making, running dog lackies of The Man. <wink> (thx grumpycoconut - OpenCarry.org)

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Re: OSU Lawsuit Dismissed ... Another Solution

Post by MyWifeSaidYes »

dynamike wrote:... Rogue activists will hurt us. Just look to California.
No.

Do NOT look to California.

That state is a completely different political animal.

As for rogue activists hurting "us", that depends on who is "us".

If the messages are similar, multiple groups can engage on multiple fronts and be effective.

What hurts "us" is when one person thinks his or her group has the only legitimate message and doesn't want anyone else to play unless the message is exactly the same.

That fosters resentment and destroys any chance of cooperation from other groups.

While I like them BOTH, Dynamike and BB62 are two of the most stubborn, hard-headed alpha males I've ever met.

In this case, they both want the same thing, but they have to work separately because I doubt that the two of them could ever work together.
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Re: OSU Lawsuit Dismissed ... Another Solution

Post by Mustang380gal »

MyWifeSaidYes wrote: In this case, they both want the same thing, but they have to work separately because I doubt that the two of them could ever work together.
And yet, working together, at least by coordinating efforts, may be the key to reaching the goal.
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Re: OSU Lawsuit Dismissed ... Another Solution

Post by dynamike »

MyWifeSaidYes wrote:
dynamike wrote:... Rogue activists will hurt us. Just look to California.
No.

Do NOT look to California.

That state is a completely different political animal.

As for rogue activists hurting "us", that depends on who is "us".

If the messages are similar, multiple groups can engage on multiple fronts and be effective.

What hurts "us" is when one person thinks his or her group has the only legitimate message and doesn't want anyone else to play unless the message is exactly the same.

That fosters resentment and destroys any chance of cooperation from other groups.

While I like them BOTH, Dynamike and BB62 are two of the most stubborn, hard-headed alpha males I've ever met.

In this case, they both want the same thing, but they have to work separately because I doubt that the two of them could ever work together.
By "rogue activists," I mean folks like those that open carried into Starbucks wearing poor fitting clothing with controversial sayings on them. If you're going to openly carry a firearm to educate the public, you must put your best foot forward. That's just a fact.

It is also one that Jeff Smith has embraced and use, from what I can tell.

The issue isn't that he and I have BOTH believe our groups' messages are the only legitimate ones. SCC does not take a position on open carry. As such, we will not get involved in open carry protests. I communicated this to Jeff and told him we can still help send students.

The timing however was not optimal. We were just about to file and were concerned that the image of a bunch of guys carrying firearms across campus would hurt our case. You can argue this with me all you want, but this was at the advice of counsel and you all know how I pretty much do what they tell me.

I asked Jeff to hold off and he was adamant that it needed to happen immediately. He claimed to have emails from OSU legal stating that students wouldn't be disciplined for participation. I accepted that this was going to happen and we should be a part of the effort to try to make it a success. I asked him for those emails with full headers intact. We're not going to advise our members to violate university policy, which void of their emails, we would be.

He said that he wanted to keep them to himself and refused to share them. We had no choice at that point. It was too late to get the emails via open records request. We could not get behind such efforts and advised anyone who asked us about the walk to not participate.

I have since offered several mea culpas, olive branches, and outright apologies (when I didn't feel I needed to) in an attempt to work with him to coordinate efforts. I have done this both publicly and privately. Yet, we are still here.

Am I hard-headed? Yes, I am. However, this is bigger than me and my ego has no place here.

I don't know what else to say or do to make myself clear.
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Re: OSU Lawsuit Dismissed ... Another Solution

Post by BB62 »

dynamike wrote:
MyWifeSaidYes wrote:
dynamike wrote:... Rogue activists will hurt us. Just look to California.
No.

Do NOT look to California.

That state is a completely different political animal.

As for rogue activists hurting "us", that depends on who is "us".

If the messages are similar, multiple groups can engage on multiple fronts and be effective.

What hurts "us" is when one person thinks his or her group has the only legitimate message and doesn't want anyone else to play unless the message is exactly the same.

That fosters resentment and destroys any chance of cooperation from other groups.

While I like them BOTH, Dynamike and BB62 are two of the most stubborn, hard-headed alpha males I've ever met.

In this case, they both want the same thing, but they have to work separately because I doubt that the two of them could ever work together.
By "rogue activists," I mean folks like those that open carried into Starbucks wearing poor fitting clothing with controversial sayings on them. If you're going to openly carry a firearm to educate the public, you must put your best foot forward. That's just a fact.

It is also one that Jeff Smith has embraced and use, from what I can tell.

The issue isn't that he and I have BOTH believe our groups' messages are the only legitimate ones. SCC does not take a position on open carry. As such, we will not get involved in open carry protests. I communicated this to Jeff and told him we can still help send students.

The timing however was not optimal. We were just about to file and were concerned that the image of a bunch of guys carrying firearms across campus would hurt our case. You can argue this with me all you want, but this was at the advice of counsel and you all know how I pretty much do what they tell me.

I asked Jeff to hold off and he was adamant that it needed to happen immediately. He claimed to have emails from OSU legal stating that students wouldn't be disciplined for participation. I accepted that this was going to happen and we should be a part of the effort to try to make it a success. I asked him for those emails with full headers intact. We're not going to advise our members to violate university policy, which void of their emails, we would be.

He said that he wanted to keep them to himself and refused to share them. We had no choice at that point. It was too late to get the emails via open records request. We could not get behind such efforts and advised anyone who asked us about the walk to not participate.

I have since offered several mea culpas, olive branches, and outright apologies (when I didn't feel I needed to) in an attempt to work with him to coordinate efforts. I have done this both publicly and privately. Yet, we are still here.

Am I hard-headed? Yes, I am. However, this is bigger than me and my ego has no place here.

I don't know what else to say or do to make myself clear.
Oh, you've made yourself more than clear, Mike: people can choose to believe your tales at their peril.
Yes, I do believe in open carry. An openly armed man is clear in his intentions. Concealed carriers are sneaks and skulkers and elitist, boot licking, political contribution making, running dog lackies of The Man. <wink> (thx grumpycoconut - OpenCarry.org)

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