HB 235: CHL applicants who are/were in military

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WestonDon
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Re: HB 235: CHL applicants who are/were in military

Post by WestonDon »

This thread is becoming circular. I am getting dizzy.
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Re: HB 235: CHL applicants who are/were in military

Post by JediSkipdogg »

WestonDon wrote:This thread is becoming circular. I am getting dizzy.
Carmen is just very passionate about mandated training. Just like he is about driving in the left lane.
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Re: HB 235: CHL applicants who are/were in military

Post by Bama.45 »

carmen fovozzo wrote:Armstrong certified floor installers..you need to be certified and keep up with there training..you are most likely refering to HD and LOWE'S INSTALLERS..Most of them are remodelers and don't know much about the products.. Bama...calling me is a insult..I'll over look it this time. If it's wrong to ask for safety training to carry to save lives, so be it.

Calling you what is an insult?... I didnt call you anything but brother as in did you not also serve?.. If that's the insult, I apologize. :?


As I have said, open carry in Ohio doesn't require any training... How does concealed carry with no training increase the risk for negligent discharges?.. And where's the facts that show training decreases negligent discharges?
"Lord, make my hand fast and accurate.
Let my aim be true and my hand faster
than those who would seek to destroy me.
Grant me victory over my foes and those who wish to do harm to me and mine.
Let not my last thought be 'If I only had my gun."
And Lord, if today is truly the day you call me home
Let me die in a pile of empty brass."
Amen




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~The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.~ Thomas Jefferson
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welshj
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Re: HB 235: CHL applicants who are/were in military

Post by welshj »

hmmm...

There are several soldiers I have known- that should have never been issued a firearm in the first place.
It would scare the **** out of me to know that they were carrying a personal firearm.

Now having said that, and being one of those that would benefit from this as well...
It would have saved me a lot of money a few years back.
I have fired many small arms and weapons in the army-

M2 .50 cal
MK19 grenade launcher
M16 rifle
M249 saw
M240B
M60 machine gun
M9
M203
500A shotgun

Most I qualified expert with, but the most relevant to this discussion- the 9MM M9 Beretta... I fired once and came nowhere near qualifying with.

So, my thought is similar to others in that I cant really think this is a "good" idea.
Having training or familiarization to legally open or concealed carry a firearm? Yes, I agree that it's a good idea.

Mandatory? Yes/No... I would like to think that a responsible firearm owner would seek out practice, advice, training, experienced shooters in the owning and or shooting of their gun.
Most people do in some fashion. As in- "I grew up around guns, my dad taught me as a kid, my friend or family member showed me- took me shooting." Etc...

I've heard and partook in the "driving is not a right" discussion. So mandatory driver's training I agree with.
The 2A is a right we as a people in this country agreed to. So while I think firearm training of some fashion is smart. I don't see being made mandatory as something... good? Purely from a theoretical / political viewpoint.

I'm also in the "one law for all" camp in my opinion.

While I enjoy the benefit of medical care for my service connected injuries/problems, I feel that I earned that the hard way.
But, to be exempt from a law or requirement because I am prior military or retired/active police member? No. I'm no better than any one else.
I did a job, I served in the army. While there were certain dangers or things that the average citizen wouldn't have dealt with...
It was still a job. I got paid, however much... for my service. Just like any other working American.

But, I also believe that the members of government- judges, officials, police, congress, all the way to the guy in the white house-
Should be vulnerable and held to, the same laws and rights as any other American citizen.
Six months in Bosnian conflict in '98.
Two tours in Iraq '03-'04 & '05-'06
Currently deploying daily to toledo, oh! :)
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Re: HB 235: CHL applicants who are/were in military

Post by curmudgeon3 »

Not trying to over-simplify the issue in question but consider this situation: if you were at your local gun shop/shooting range and the guy behind the counter sold a handgun to someone who had never handled a gun before how would you judge that salesman if he permitted the buyer to go straight to the firing line and begin shooting and God forbid he "accidently" shot someone in the next lane while trying to load his new gun. (Be honest now. Do you think it should be mandatory that salesmen provide gun safety training in this situation ?)
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Re: HB 235: CHL applicants who are/were in military

Post by JediSkipdogg »

curmudgeon3 wrote:Not trying to over-simplify the issue in question but consider this situation: if you were at your local gun shop/shooting range and the guy behind the counter sold a handgun to someone who had never handled a gun before how would you judge that salesman if he permitted the buyer to go straight to the firing line and begin shooting and God forbid he "accidently" shot someone in the next lane while trying to load his new gun. (Be honest now. Do you think it should be mandatory that salesmen provide gun safety training in this situation ?)
And that's the one that gets hard. I think most will show you how to fire, but not even all know what is what on a gun and they may have to pull out the manual. This can be extremely hard as there are so many different guns. I struggle teaching classes when new guns come in. On my FNH what many think would be a safety is the decocker, there is no safety. On my Sig, which looks the same in terms of location of parts as the FNH, it's a safety and not a decocker, there is no decocker. A Glock is torn apart totally different than a 1911 and an M&P. My XD requires me to pull the trigger to release the slide, my XDM does not.

Sure, one can go over the basics, but really it needs to be about 2 hours with that person and their individual gun. Most of which can be found in the owner's manual if they would read it before they fire it and tear it apart. And if training is mandatory, do you make someone that owns 13 1911s go through training on 1911 #14? Now what if they buy a Glock as #14?

Essentially, you can't cover all aspects of firearms to train someone how to safely operate it. It's simply not feasible. Therefore, I don't think any training should be necessary unless the person desires it themselves.
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Re: HB 235: CHL applicants who are/were in military

Post by curmudgeon3 »

JediSkipdogg wrote:
curmudgeon3 wrote:Not trying to over-simplify the issue in question but consider this situation: if you were at your local gun shop/shooting range and the guy behind the counter sold a handgun to someone who had never handled a gun before how would you judge that salesman if he permitted the buyer to go straight to the firing line and begin shooting and God forbid he "accidently" shot someone in the next lane while trying to load his new gun. (Be honest now. Do you think it should be mandatory that salesmen provide gun safety training in this situation ?)
And that's the one that gets hard. I think most will show you how to fire, but not even all know what is what on a gun and they may have to pull out the manual. This can be extremely hard as there are so many different guns. I struggle teaching classes when new guns come in. On my FNH what many think would be a safety is the decocker, there is no safety. On my Sig, which looks the same in terms of location of parts as the FNH, it's a safety and not a decocker, there is no decocker. A Glock is torn apart totally different than a 1911 and an M&P. My XD requires me to pull the trigger to release the slide, my XDM does not.

Sure, one can go over the basics, but really it needs to be about 2 hours with that person and their individual gun. Most of which can be found in the owner's manual if they would read it before they fire it and tear it apart. And if training is mandatory, do you make someone that owns 13 1911s go through training on 1911 #14? Now what if they buy a Glock as #14?

Essentially, you can't cover all aspects of firearms to train someone how to safely operate it. It's simply not feasible. Therefore, I don't think any training should be necessary unless the person desires it themselves.
Would your thinking change a little bit if you were the "someone" in the next lane ? :)
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Re: HB 235: CHL applicants who are/were in military

Post by JediSkipdogg »

curmudgeon3 wrote:Would your thinking change a little bit if you were the "someone" in the next lane ? :)
No, accidents happen and I look at what gun stores would have to go through to spend 2 hours of training for everyone on that specific weapon. And how do you do it on private party sales without eliminating them?

How about driver's go through a full day of training for every new/used car they buy? After all, AWD handles differently than FWD or RWD. How about you need a training class if you want a tow hitch installed? Wind, turning, driving in reverse, etc all can have a huge impact on towing. Let's look at traction control and stability control? Most leave them on all the time but there are certain driving times whey they should be off.
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Re: HB 235: CHL applicants who are/were in military

Post by curmudgeon3 »

JediSkipdogg wrote:
curmudgeon3 wrote:Would your thinking change a little bit if you were the "someone" in the next lane ? :)
No, accidents happen and I look at what gun stores would have to go through to spend 2 hours of training for everyone on that specific weapon. And how do you do it on private party sales without eliminating them?

How about driver's go through a full day of training for every new/used car they buy? After all, AWD handles differently than FWD or RWD. How about you need a training class if you want a tow hitch installed? Wind, turning, driving in reverse, etc all can have a huge impact on towing. Let's look at traction control and stability control? Most leave them on all the time but there are certain driving times whey they should be off.
Well, okay. Just suggesting it might be beneficial to the purchaser and others' safety for the salesman to know if the customer was familiar enough with handling guns safely before he goes to the firing line, and if not, to take 10-15 minutes to show the basics of the operation and safety.
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Re: HB 235: CHL applicants who are/were in military

Post by Bama.45 »

curmudgeon3 wrote:
JediSkipdogg wrote:
curmudgeon3 wrote:Would your thinking change a little bit if you were the "someone" in the next lane ? :)
No, accidents happen and I look at what gun stores would have to go through to spend 2 hours of training for everyone on that specific weapon. And how do you do it on private party sales without eliminating them?

How about driver's go through a full day of training for every new/used car they buy? After all, AWD handles differently than FWD or RWD. How about you need a training class if you want a tow hitch installed? Wind, turning, driving in reverse, etc all can have a huge impact on towing. Let's look at traction control and stability control? Most leave them on all the time but there are certain driving times whey they should be off.
Well, okay. Just suggesting it might be beneficial to the purchaser and others' safety for the salesman to know if the customer was familiar enough with handling guns safely before he goes to the firing line, and if not, to take 10-15 minutes to show the basics of the operation and safety.

I think most folks that enjoy working in the gun business would be more than happy to spend 10-15 mins going over the basic features and safety features of the guns they're trying to sell.. But you've got to admit that the majority of the male species has the"I'm a man and know how to do all manly things syndrome." And would be insulted if given a safety lecture... I've taught folks how to shoot... And women are by far the easiest to teach in most cases... They don't have the know it all attitude.
"Lord, make my hand fast and accurate.
Let my aim be true and my hand faster
than those who would seek to destroy me.
Grant me victory over my foes and those who wish to do harm to me and mine.
Let not my last thought be 'If I only had my gun."
And Lord, if today is truly the day you call me home
Let me die in a pile of empty brass."
Amen




U.S. Marines 01-07



~The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.~ Thomas Jefferson
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JediSkipdogg
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Re: HB 235: CHL applicants who are/were in military

Post by JediSkipdogg »

Bama.45 wrote:I think most folks that enjoy working in the gun business would be more than happy to spend 10-15 mins going over the basic features and safety features of the guns they're trying to sell.. But you've got to admit that the majority of the male species has the"I'm a man and know how to do all manly things syndrome." And would be insulted if given a safety lecture... I've taught folks how to shoot... And women are by far the easiest to teach in most cases... They don't have the know it all attitude.
I totally concur on that. If you make it voluntarily most women will ask and most men will just say no, regardless of their skill level. If you make it mandatory, then I think most experienced gun owners will get annoyed. If I had to stand there and listen to a gun I already have knowledge of I'll just be annoyed and it may turn some sales away.
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WestonDon
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Re: HB 235: CHL applicants who are/were in military

Post by WestonDon »

curmudgeon3 wrote:Not trying to over-simplify the issue in question but consider this situation: if you were at your local gun shop/shooting range and the guy behind the counter sold a handgun to someone who had never handled a gun before how would you judge that salesman if he permitted the buyer to go straight to the firing line and begin shooting and God forbid he "accidently" shot someone in the next lane while trying to load his new gun. (Be honest now. Do you think it should be mandatory that salesmen provide gun safety training in this situation ?)
This sounds a lot like an argument for a "Firearm Owner Identification" card. I for one do not wish to go there.
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Re: HB 235: CHL applicants who are/were in military

Post by Brian D. »

Information abounds more and more each day with regards to ANY sort of dangerous product we choose to buy. It's incumbent upon the user to know how to properly, safely use that can of Coleman fuel or S&W firearm from WalMart.
Quit worrying, hide your gun well, shut up, and CARRY that handgun!

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Re: HB 235: CHL applicants who are/were in military

Post by curmudgeon3 »

WestonDon wrote:
curmudgeon3 wrote:Not trying to over-simplify the issue in question but consider this situation: if you were at your local gun shop/shooting range and the guy behind the counter sold a handgun to someone who had never handled a gun before how would you judge that salesman if he permitted the buyer to go straight to the firing line and begin shooting and God forbid he "accidently" shot someone in the next lane while trying to load his new gun. (Be honest now. Do you think it should be mandatory that salesmen provide gun safety training in this situation ?)
This sounds a lot like an argument for a "Firearm Owner Identification" card. I for one do not wish to go there.
Agreed, neither do I, but would you have any misgivings being on the firing line next to this shooter ? Some people would choose not to go to that particular range and just complain to others about the Range Safety Management. Ranges in some areas are scarce enough now without having one shut down because of safety complaints.
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Re: HB 235: CHL applicants who are/were in military

Post by Bama.45 »

curmudgeon3 wrote:
WestonDon wrote:
curmudgeon3 wrote:Not trying to over-simplify the issue in question but consider this situation: if you were at your local gun shop/shooting range and the guy behind the counter sold a handgun to someone who had never handled a gun before how would you judge that salesman if he permitted the buyer to go straight to the firing line and begin shooting and God forbid he "accidently" shot someone in the next lane while trying to load his new gun. (Be honest now. Do you think it should be mandatory that salesmen provide gun safety training in this situation ?)
This sounds a lot like an argument for a "Firearm Owner Identification" card. I for one do not wish to go there.
Agreed, neither do I, but would you have any misgivings being on the firing line next to this shooter ? Some people would choose not to go to that particular range and just complain to others about the Range Safety Management. Ranges in some areas are scarce enough now without having one shut down because of safety complaints.
I see what you are saying... But who's to say the person hasn't had any training?... I've been around folks I know that knew firearms safety and they were still idiots.. One class isnt going to change someone's mindset... To be honest I would bet 90% get the training because it's required and then forget it.
"Lord, make my hand fast and accurate.
Let my aim be true and my hand faster
than those who would seek to destroy me.
Grant me victory over my foes and those who wish to do harm to me and mine.
Let not my last thought be 'If I only had my gun."
And Lord, if today is truly the day you call me home
Let me die in a pile of empty brass."
Amen




U.S. Marines 01-07



~The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.~ Thomas Jefferson
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