Cleveland Councilman recommends tactic banned by fed. court

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curmudgeon3
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Re: Cleveland Councilman recommends tactic banned by fed. co

Post by curmudgeon3 »

If the frisk is well planned and productive it justifies itself. :|
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Re: Cleveland Councilman recommends tactic banned by fed. co

Post by CroManGun »

curmudgeon3 wrote:If the frisk is well planned and productive it justifies itself. :|
End justifies the means?
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Re: Cleveland Councilman recommends tactic banned by fed. co

Post by Brian D. »

Makes me want to sponsor an OFCC bus trip to Cleveland so we can do some takedowns/stop and frisks on any city council members we encounter. I think a doing a hard, sidewalk face plant on lawmakers like Mr. Reed two or three times a day for about a week would be absolutely therapeutic. The dry cleaning/repair bills he'd have for those nice suits he wears just may act as an object lesson about that pesky U.S. Constitution he apparently doesn't hold in high regard.
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mrbone
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Re: Cleveland Councilman recommends tactic banned by fed. co

Post by mrbone »

This is just another of the long list of reasons to not visit Cleveland. Just had a funny thought. So as I noted, Mr. Reid's plan seems to be to stop and frisk a whole bunch of people at random so as to keep it racially balanced. I think it'd be hillarious if they decided to stop and frisk all the GOP delegates and candidates in the 2016 convention. The cops could cite as the reasonable suspicion for doing the frisking is the fact that they were politicians, and that made it highly likely that they were doing something illegal!
curmudgeon3
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Re: Cleveland Councilman recommends tactic banned by fed. co

Post by curmudgeon3 »

CroManGun wrote:
curmudgeon3 wrote:If the frisk is well planned and productive it justifies itself. :|
End justifies the means?
No, not in every case, but if it keeps the Cop from getting shot ...... inner-city Cops know who's likely packin'.
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Re: Cleveland Councilman recommends tactic banned by fed. co

Post by Bama.45 »

curmudgeon3 wrote:
CroManGun wrote:
curmudgeon3 wrote:If the frisk is well planned and productive it justifies itself. :|
End justifies the means?
No, not in every case, but if it keeps the Cop from getting shot ...... inner-city Cops know who's likely packin'.

Hmmm I can't support that... It is no different than a cop stopping someone walking on a sidewalk and asking for their papers... It is a violation of the 4th A.. If the cop suspects someone, I am all for the cop following and observing but without RAS... It is wrong for cops to throw people up against buildings or down on the street or sidewalk to search them.
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Re: Cleveland Councilman recommends tactic banned by fed. co

Post by CroManGun »

curmudgeon3 wrote:
CroManGun wrote:
curmudgeon3 wrote:If the frisk is well planned and productive it justifies itself. :|
End justifies the means?
No, not in every case, but if it keeps the Cop from getting shot ...... inner-city Cops know who's likely packin'.
Might as well go all-out and search the inner-city cribs and whips too! That alone could keep a lotta people from getting shot!
LAC or thug, seems we've all got some rights left.
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curmudgeon3
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Re: Cleveland Councilman recommends tactic banned by fed. co

Post by curmudgeon3 »

[/quoteEnd justifies the means?
No, not in every case, but if it keeps the Cop from getting shot ...... inner-city Cops know who's likely packin'.[/quote]
]
Might as well go all-out and search the inner-city cribs and whips too! That alone could keep a lotta people from getting shot!
LAC or thug, seems we've all got some rights left.
[/quote]

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Re: Cleveland Councilman recommends tactic banned by fed. co

Post by mrbone »

I heard a second interview and got more clarity on how he intends to make this legal. It's not frisking random people to make it racially balanced like I thought. He does want the cops to target hot spots and not waste their time in safe areas. He's calling it "stop, QUESTION, and frisk." I believe what NY did went from stop directly to frisk, no questions asked. His idea is that a cop stops someone whom the cop clearly knows is up to no good, then asks enough clever questions to get the target to say something stupid that would then invoke reasonable suspicion to legally allow the cop to do a frisk. I actually find that not terribly objectionable if it actually follows that protocol. If you say stupid things to cops then bad things will happen to you. Just keep your mouth shut.
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Re: Cleveland Councilman recommends tactic banned by fed. co

Post by Tweed Ring »

So far, the ACLU and the NAACP have weighed in against this proposal. I believe all such programs, no matter how they are cloaked, remain un-Constitutional.
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Re: Cleveland Councilman recommends tactic banned by fed. co

Post by catfish86 »

I have always felt it stupid that the NYC case revolved around racial targeting when the obvious 4th Amendment infringement is ignored. The NYC pretty much randomly entered buildings because they had a track record of crimes or the building owner requested it and stopped and frisked. Why not just round citizens up and process them for crimes or just general unworthiness to live?

We get into this a lot when obvious constitutional issues are ignored yet obscure abstracts not directly stated in the constitution are zealously enforced.
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curmudgeon3
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Re: Cleveland Councilman recommends tactic banned by fed. co

Post by curmudgeon3 »

How far can this be taken ? Sometimes, due considerations need to be given to the Cop on the street; if he comes upon a felon (known to him) with a bulge showing at the waist-line, should he think frisk, or 4th Amendment rights of the life-turned-around felon ?
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Re: Cleveland Councilman recommends tactic banned by fed. co

Post by mrbone »

Bear in mind tha the 4th Amendment say "unresasonable search and siezure." Most people who invoke the 4th Amendment act as though it says "all search and siezure." This means some warrantless searches are legal if they are "reasonable," whatever that means. Personally I'd rather it say "all," but it doesn't so here's the Constitutional reality we live with:

Courts have ruled that if a cop has a rational reason to believe that a suspected criminal is a danger to the cop's life then the cop can do a frisk for the purpose of finding and removing weapons so as to eliminate the danger to the cop's life. Thus if a cop goes to a corner where there has been a lot of gang violence, approaches someone wearing gang clothing, sees an obvious bulge on the guy's wasteline, and then makes the guy admit that "Yeah I'm a member of the Crips" then the cop's decision to frisk would very likely be considered "reasonable" and thus legal.
curmudgeon3
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Re: Cleveland Councilman recommends tactic banned by fed. co

Post by curmudgeon3 »

I think that's what the Cleveland Councilman is sayin', because he thinks that's what's happenin' in Cleveland. :|
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