HB420 --Parking lot protection, etc.

Discussion of Firearm Politics & Legislation. This forum is now strictly limited to discussions directly related to firearms.

Moderators: Chuck, Mustang380gal, Coordinators, Moderators

Voice
Posts: 235
Joined: Mon Feb 03, 2014 11:52 am
Location: Mason, OH

Re: HB420 --Parking lot protection, etc.

Post by Voice »

WestonDon wrote:If this bill is passed, how would it be enforced?

Seriously, I see no practical enforcement mechanism. Only potential for costly litigation.
That's exactly how it would be enforced. Just like the vast majority of *other* employee protections.
User avatar
JediSkipdogg
Posts: 10257
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2008 3:03 pm
Location: Batavia
Contact:

Re: HB420 --Parking lot protection, etc.

Post by JediSkipdogg »

WestonDon wrote:If this bill is passed, how would it be enforced?

Seriously, I see no practical enforcement mechanism. Only potential for costly litigation.
You get fired. Then you sue for wrongful termination. Then you prove that you were fired for the firearm. Then the judge agrees on a wrongful termination. So you have two possible outcomes. 1) You get your job back and work for a company that doesn't like you because you just sued them. In this case your company will look for every minor thing you do wrong and possibly try to fire you for it. or 2) You get some payout and you'll still out a job.

Interestingly if you read the bill it simply says they can't prohibit you for storing it in your vehicle. However, it doesn't say the business can't decide what your storage method is. So far I only know of one case where someone was terminated for a firearm in the vehicle. I think it was the Cleveland Clinic and it was a firearm stolen from her sidebag on her motorcycle. Well, could she still be fired for improperly securing it? I say yes. Tweed may have more input on that on how far HR can go when the law says they can't prohibit you from doing something but they don't specify guidelines on how it must be done.
Carrying Concealed Handguns - Signage Answers

Ohio Concealed Carry Classes in S/W Ohio
http://www.ProShootersTraining.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I am not a lawyer. My answers are based on research, knowledge, and are generally backed up with facts, the Ohio Revised Code, or the United States Code.
User avatar
Atilla
Posts: 1928
Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2009 12:18 am
Location: Euclid

Re: HB420 --Parking lot protection, etc.

Post by Atilla »

WestonDon wrote:If this bill is passed, how would it be enforced?

Seriously, I see no practical enforcement mechanism. Only potential for costly litigation.
The same way it is enforced in the other 20 states with parking lot self defense protection.
C'mon! We're all going to die, die standing up!
User avatar
Werz
OFCC Patron Member
OFCC Patron Member
Posts: 5506
Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 2:37 am

Re: HB420 --Parking lot protection, etc.

Post by Werz »

Atilla wrote:
WestonDon wrote:If this bill is passed, how would it be enforced?

Seriously, I see no practical enforcement mechanism. Only potential for costly litigation.
The same way it is enforced in the other 20 states with parking lot self defense protection.
If you're going to make a blanket statement like that, you should be prepared to cite statutes. And no, that doesn't mean a list of states from some gun blog.
"An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life."
-- Robert A. Heinlein, Beyond This Horizon
"Remember that protecting our gun rights still boils down to keeping a majority in the electorate, and that our daily activities can have the impact of being ambassadors for the gun culture ..."
-- BobK
Open carry is a First Amendment exercise.
User avatar
Atilla
Posts: 1928
Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2009 12:18 am
Location: Euclid

Re: HB420 --Parking lot protection, etc.

Post by Atilla »

Werz wrote:
Atilla wrote:
WestonDon wrote:If this bill is passed, how would it be enforced?

Seriously, I see no practical enforcement mechanism. Only potential for costly litigation.
The same way it is enforced in the other 20 states with parking lot self defense protection.
If you're going to make a blanket statement like that, you should be prepared to cite statutes. And no, that doesn't mean a list of states from some gun blog.
Here's the Indiana law (which has since been amended to include school grounds): http://www.in.gov/legislative/bills/201 ... 025.1.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Kentucky law: http://www.lrc.ky.gov/Statutes/statute.aspx?id=11131" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Florida, which includes no employer search of vehicles without a warrant: http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/ind ... 0.251.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

North Dakota: http://www.legis.nd.gov/assembly/62-201 ... 0325193615" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And I could go on for another 15 states. You should get the point.

Now my challenge to all the 'private property' zealots (who must already follow taxation, zoning, environmental.....laws on their 'private' property) to cite ONE, just ONE example of where a legally stored firearm of an employee or customer in their locked vehicle caused said property owner to incur a loss beyond hurt feelings. Just one instance. Please.
C'mon! We're all going to die, die standing up!
Tweed Ring
Posts: 17812
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2007 9:15 am

Re: HB420 --Parking lot protection, etc.

Post by Tweed Ring »

I am a so-labeled employer's rights zealot. I don't have to prove or cite anything.

I just have to convince my representatives in the OGA that my position is right. I shall meet with a number of them tomorrow evening, and I shall so communicate.
BriKuz
Posts: 698
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2012 4:59 pm
Location: Ashland County, OH

Re: HB420 --Parking lot protection, etc.

Post by BriKuz »

Atilla wrote:
And I could go on for another 15 states. You should get the point.

Now my challenge to all the 'private property' zealots (who must already follow taxation, zoning, environmental.....laws on their 'private' property) to cite ONE, just ONE example of where a legally stored firearm of an employee or customer in their locked vehicle caused said property owner to incur a loss beyond hurt feelings. Just one instance. Please.
The fact that our private property rights are already infringed by zoning, tax, and environmental concerns does NOT mean we should give up even MORE private property rights... just as our rights to carry concealed without a "permission slip," or to make/buy a weapon under various NFA crap doesn't mean we should give up our MSRs or magazines over <insert arbitrary number here> rounds....

As for your "challenge"... I can't name one instance where a person's stored Qur'an or Bible stored in their car in my driveway has caused harm... but I don't f-ing CARE! it is MY driveway, and I make the rules on it... don't follow them, and you WILL be forcibly removed... :twisted:
User avatar
Werz
OFCC Patron Member
OFCC Patron Member
Posts: 5506
Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 2:37 am

Re: HB420 --Parking lot protection, etc.

Post by Werz »

Atilla wrote:Here's the Indiana law (which has since been amended to include school grounds): http://www.in.gov/legislative/bills/201 ... 025.1.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Must personally sue your employer: IC 34-28-7-2
Kentucky law: http://www.lrc.ky.gov/Statutes/statute.aspx?id=11131" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Must personally sue your employer: KRS 237.106(4)
Florida, which includes no employer search of vehicles without a warrant: http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/ind ... 0.251.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Attorney General can bring lawsuit, but if Attorney General opts out*, must personally sue your employer: §790.251(6), Fla.Stat. (2013)
North Dakota: http://www.legis.nd.gov/assembly/62-201 ... 0325193615" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Must personally sue your employer: N.D.C.C. §62.1-02-13-5
And I could go on for another 15 states. You should get the point.
And I hope you get the point about the available remedies.


* Interpret "opts out" as "don't have time to mess with this" or "no reasonable cause to believe."
"An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life."
-- Robert A. Heinlein, Beyond This Horizon
"Remember that protecting our gun rights still boils down to keeping a majority in the electorate, and that our daily activities can have the impact of being ambassadors for the gun culture ..."
-- BobK
Open carry is a First Amendment exercise.
User avatar
Atilla
Posts: 1928
Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2009 12:18 am
Location: Euclid

Re: HB420 --Parking lot protection, etc.

Post by Atilla »

Yeah I get the point. Some here prefer 'property rights' and employer discrimination over the self defense rights of people traveling to workplaces. Point is parking lot storage rights work in a lot of other states, and the threat of lawsuits is enough to enforce them.
C'mon! We're all going to die, die standing up!
Tweed Ring
Posts: 17812
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2007 9:15 am

Re: HB420 --Parking lot protection, etc.

Post by Tweed Ring »

Atilla wrote:Yeah I get the point. Some here prefer 'property rights' and employer discrimination over the self defense rights of people traveling to workplaces. Point is parking lot storage rights work in a lot of other states, and the threat of lawsuits is enough to enforce them.
I doubt we shall ever agree on this topic. In additions to choices, sometimes life is replete with disappointments, as well. Despite this apparent tragedy, I shall attempt to persevere. I do support the right of employers (their property rights) to manage and exercise control over their property.

As someone who had served as an EEO Compliance Officer, for a number of years, I do not see your allegation of employment discrimination (a Term of Art) as being valid.

You are not the subject of employer discrimination. Persons who possess firearms are not, in and of themselves, members of any of the recognized protected classes.

But, the OCRC and the EEOC stand at the ready, if you choose to file a complainant. If you are covered by a labor agreement, please feel free to file an employee grievance.

There may be some downsides to expressing your concerns to your employer, but in addition to our Second Amendment, you do have certain rights under our First Amendment, and the Ohio Constitution, too.

Conversely, I believe any number of states which have passed this legislation have erred in enacting these proposals into law.

But, once again, this will come down to votes in the OGA. That is the game. My political sense tells me my side is winning.
Tweed Ring
Posts: 17812
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2007 9:15 am

Re: HB420 --Parking lot protection, etc.

Post by Tweed Ring »

I just got off the phone with a state representative. Said this proposal will not get out of committee this session. Said there was a lot of disagreement about this proposal within the Republican Caucus.

As I had written earlier, DOA.
techguy85
Posts: 1332
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2012 8:55 am
Location: Columbus

Re: HB420 --Parking lot protection, etc.

Post by techguy85 »

Atilla wrote:Yeah I get the point. Some here prefer 'property rights' and employer discrimination over the self defense rights of people traveling to workplaces. Point is parking lot storage rights work in a lot of other states, and the threat of lawsuits is enough to enforce them.
Sure, like the threat of R.C. 9.68 lawsuits prevents Universities or other public entities from adopting rules about firearms... Oh wait.... :?
Voice
Posts: 235
Joined: Mon Feb 03, 2014 11:52 am
Location: Mason, OH

Re: HB420 --Parking lot protection, etc.

Post by Voice »

techguy85 wrote:
Atilla wrote:Yeah I get the point. Some here prefer 'property rights' and employer discrimination over the self defense rights of people traveling to workplaces. Point is parking lot storage rights work in a lot of other states, and the threat of lawsuits is enough to enforce them.
Sure, like the threat of R.C. 9.68 lawsuits prevents Universities or other public entities from adopting rules about firearms... Oh wait.... :?
Your point being what?

That because it sometimes takes a lawsuit filed (or even take to trial) in order to get the protections guaranteed by law, you should give up?

Or that the threat of lawsuits sometimes *does* result in getting the protections guaranteed by law.
Tweed Ring
Posts: 17812
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2007 9:15 am

Re: HB420 --Parking lot protection, etc.

Post by Tweed Ring »

Neither our Bill of Rights, nor our State of Ohio Constitution, provides anyone the right to bring a personal weapon on an employer's property.

So if there would be a lawsuit, what would be the cause of action? Violation of a supposed right, which does not exist?
User avatar
Werz
OFCC Patron Member
OFCC Patron Member
Posts: 5506
Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 2:37 am

Re: HB420 --Parking lot protection, etc.

Post by Werz »

Voice wrote:
techguy85 wrote:
Atilla wrote:Yeah I get the point. Some here prefer 'property rights' and employer discrimination over the self defense rights of people traveling to workplaces. Point is parking lot storage rights work in a lot of other states, and the threat of lawsuits is enough to enforce them.
Sure, like the threat of R.C. 9.68 lawsuits prevents Universities or other public entities from adopting rules about firearms... Oh wait.... :?
Your point being what?

That because it sometimes takes a lawsuit filed (or even take to trial) in order to get the protections guaranteed by law, you should give up?

Or that the threat of lawsuits sometimes *does* result in getting the protections guaranteed by law.
Here's a finer point ...

Note that, in the laws mentioned earlier, all but Florida required personal lawsuits. Who in Ohio is filing personal lawsuits under R.C. 9.68? Who can afford to do it? OFCC can occasionally fund one against a municipality. But who is going to fund a lawsuit against every private employer who doesn't want guns on the premises, including the parking lot?
"An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life."
-- Robert A. Heinlein, Beyond This Horizon
"Remember that protecting our gun rights still boils down to keeping a majority in the electorate, and that our daily activities can have the impact of being ambassadors for the gun culture ..."
-- BobK
Open carry is a First Amendment exercise.
Post Reply