NEW OHIO GUN LAWS 2013?

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slowquest
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Re: NEW OHIO GUN LAWS 2013?

Post by slowquest »

Imcrazy wrote:Eliminate the criminal nature of no gun signs would be excellent. Private property rights don't trump the right to defend myself.

EDIT: I would like to hear from those who disagree why they feel that because someone owns a piece of land that it gives them the right to strip me of my god given right to self defense. ?
So, if I take up residence in your house because some bad guy is looking for me, your ok with that? Please PM me your address so I can see if your abode is up to my standards please.....
“If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams
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OhioPaints
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Re: NEW OHIO GUN LAWS 2013?

Post by OhioPaints »

Tweed Ring wrote:Whenever I had to deal with mediocre employees whining about the work rules, I would suggest they walk out the front door. I would tell them: look to the right; look to the left; look up; and, finally, look down. Realize it's a big, wonderful world out there. If you don't like working under my rules, then don't let that door strike you in the posterior, as you go to find gainful employment elsewhere.

Never had anyone take me up on my suggestion...
That's fine for a short term employee. But for someone who has invested a long career and perhaps have their retirement is tied to continued employment, that simplistic suggestion is far from realistic.

I'm not suggesting that there is any good solution, but just saying that the company holds all the power to whatever extent they want is not fair either. (Yes, I know, life isn't "fair".)
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Imcrazy
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Re: NEW OHIO GUN LAWS 2013?

Post by Imcrazy »

slowquest wrote:
Imcrazy wrote:Eliminate the criminal nature of no gun signs would be excellent. Private property rights don't trump the right to defend myself.

EDIT: I would like to hear from those who disagree why they feel that because someone owns a piece of land that it gives them the right to strip me of my god given right to self defense. ?
So, if I take up residence in your house because some bad guy is looking for me, your ok with that? Please PM me your address so I can see if your abode is up to my standards please.....
I don't see what that has to do with my question?
-Aaron
Tweed Ring
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Re: NEW OHIO GUN LAWS 2013?

Post by Tweed Ring »

An unstoppable force, and an unmovable object, cannot exist in the same universe.

The two rights are in conflict and one must supersede and rule.

I support property rights and the right of employers to establish reasonable work rules.

Property rights and the right of employers to establish reasonable work rules take presidence, in this state, over your gun rights.

But, Ohio is filled with attorneys, courtrooms, pro-gun organizations, news media, pols, etc. Nothing would preclude you from challenging this concept in any variety of judicial venues.
slowquest
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Re: NEW OHIO GUN LAWS 2013?

Post by slowquest »

Imcrazy wrote:
slowquest wrote:
Imcrazy wrote:Eliminate the criminal nature of no gun signs would be excellent. Private property rights don't trump the right to defend myself.

EDIT: I would like to hear from those who disagree why they feel that because someone owns a piece of land that it gives them the right to strip me of my god given right to self defense. ?
So, if I take up residence in your house because some bad guy is looking for me, your ok with that? Please PM me your address so I can see if your abode is up to my standards please.....
I don't see what that has to do with my question?
If in the process of defending myself I decide to run and hide, should I be allowed to do so in your house against your will?
“If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams
Tweed Ring
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Re: NEW OHIO GUN LAWS 2013?

Post by Tweed Ring »

OhioPaints wrote:
Tweed Ring wrote:Whenever I had to deal with mediocre employees whining about the work rules, I would suggest they walk out the front door. I would tell them: look to the right; look to the left; look up; and, finally, look down. Realize it's a big, wonderful world out there. If you don't like working under my rules, then don't let that door strike you in the posterior, as you go to find gainful employment elsewhere.

Never had anyone take me up on my suggestion...
That's fine for a short term employee. But for someone who has invested a long career and perhaps have their retirement is tied to continued employment, that simplistic suggestion is far from realistic.

I'm not suggesting that there is any good solution, but just saying that the company holds all the power to whatever extent they want is not fair either. (Yes, I know, life isn't "fair".)
Of course it wasn't realistic. Wasn't meant to be realistic, nor even fair. It was meant to define the real world for them. It was...my first wake-up call to each of them. Let them know there was a new sheriff in town, if you will.

Trust me, I had very few short-term employees. Most of the mediocre types had their fangs in the payroll for many years. I was hired, amongst my other responsibilities, to either motivate them, or to weed them out, and then to beat them in arbitration and, if needed, in court.

Sure, the employer has most of the power. That's why I worked that side of employment.
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OhioPaints
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Re: NEW OHIO GUN LAWS 2013?

Post by OhioPaints »

Tweed Ring wrote:I support property rights and the right of employers to establish reasonable work rules.

Property rights and the right of employers to establish reasonable work rules take presidence, in this state, over your gun rights.
What does protecting yourself going to and coming from work at 2 am in a bad neighborhood have to do with reasonable work rules?

We are not talking about on the clock work time, we are talking about after someone leaves work and is no longer paid, nor working. When they are in their privately owned vehicle, hoping to make it home safely.

Sorry, this has nothing to do with work rules, and certainly not "reasonable".

You keep talking about "private property" rights while you give it all to a corporation and strip the individual of the rights to their own private property. Fair is fair. Why do you only respect corporate property rights, but not individual's property rights?
Tweed Ring
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Re: NEW OHIO GUN LAWS 2013?

Post by Tweed Ring »

Sure it does. If an e/r has a work rule against having a firearm in one's vehicle, and the e/e parks said vehicle on the e/r's property, the e/r has the right, and I might add, the obligation (any work rule which is not enforced is not a rule), to issue discipline.

Don't like my rule? Great. I can accept a disagreement. So...find another way to get to work. Walk, bicycle, car pool, taxi, take mass transit, find another job at a gun friendly employer, etc. I can't do all this thinking for you.


ETA: As to your owning private property, have at it. As much as you can afford. Just don't expect to pay for said private property with the wages I pay to you, as my employee, if you will not follow my rules.
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BobK
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Re: NEW OHIO GUN LAWS 2013?

Post by BobK »

Imcrazy wrote:EDIT: I would like to hear from those who disagree why they feel that because someone owns a piece of land that it gives them the right to strip me of my god given right to self defense. ?
If you don't like my rules for the use of my land, then don't enter my property. I am not stripping you of anything, as you are free to go elsewhere.
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JediSkipdogg
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Re: NEW OHIO GUN LAWS 2013?

Post by JediSkipdogg »

OhioPaints wrote:
Tweed Ring wrote:I support property rights and the right of employers to establish reasonable work rules.

Property rights and the right of employers to establish reasonable work rules take presidence, in this state, over your gun rights.
What does protecting yourself going to and coming from work at 2 am in a bad neighborhood have to do with reasonable work rules?

We are not talking about on the clock work time, we are talking about after someone leaves work and is no longer paid, nor working. When they are in their privately owned vehicle, hoping to make it home safely.

Sorry, this has nothing to do with work rules, and certainly not "reasonable".

You keep talking about "private property" rights while you give it all to a corporation and strip the individual of the rights to their own private property. Fair is fair. Why do you only respect corporate property rights, but not individual's property rights?
Here's the problem and this comes from me working in the police world and what I've seen. Vehicles are broken into all the time at work. Employees leave their vehicles unlocked at work. Guns are stolen quite often from vehicles in people's driveways. If an employer wants no guns, it means no guns. Are they safe from the above happening? No, but it can lessen the chances for them. That's how it can affect their business.

Imcrazy wrote:
slowquest wrote:
Imcrazy wrote:Eliminate the criminal nature of no gun signs would be excellent. Private property rights don't trump the right to defend myself.

EDIT: I would like to hear from those who disagree why they feel that because someone owns a piece of land that it gives them the right to strip me of my god given right to self defense. ?
So, if I take up residence in your house because some bad guy is looking for me, your ok with that? Please PM me your address so I can see if your abode is up to my standards please.....
I don't see what that has to do with my question?
So Best Buy shouldn't be allowed to kick someone out because they don't like guns? If we decriminalize CPZs then how can a business kick anyone out? They would essentially lose the ability if they don't want guns in their store. The store would call the police, the individual would say the ORC says it's a civil matter, you can't kick me out for my firearm, and the police would arrest and then we'd be battling lawsuits after lawsuits. If a business doesn't want someone on their property that fits a certain category (not counting discriminatory ones) then they should be allowed to kick that person off and have them arrested for trespass.

Now, if you say we should have a warning first before immediate arrest, I can agree. However, I can't think of a single case where police have arrested someone solely based on the sign without being told to leave first and failing to comply. Actually, Ohio appeals courts will return a not guilty finding if the person hasn't been verbally warned and/or documented or they are in violation of an obvious trespassing sign (such as a gated facility.)
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Cynyster
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Re: NEW OHIO GUN LAWS 2013?

Post by Cynyster »

Imcrazy wrote:Eliminate the criminal nature of no gun signs would be excellent. Private property rights don't trump the right to defend myself.

EDIT: I would like to hear from those who disagree why they feel that because someone owns a piece of land that it gives them the right to strip me of my god given right to self defense. ?
My particular take on this is relatively straight forward. Private Property reigns supreme. If I don't want a person on my property they are trespassing. end of story. The actual reason for it is irrelevant (I might not like that persons accent or perfume) .

Business' on the other hand, Is not private. It may be privately owned, but if you have employees ( not co-owners etc) they have already given them the permission to be there. Now employers may opt to say that for everyone's safety you cannot carry it around the office... I can see that as a reasonable restriction especially if it is a manufacturing plant where things like sleeves and jewelry can be a safety hazard. Or that a pistol might interfere with a dress code etc. in such cases employer's could have lockers that are secure. And the Employer takes responsibility for the security of those lockers.

For customers they should not be permitted to restrict anyone based on if they are carrying just as they are not permitted to restrict based upon your skin color. If someone is being disruptive or irresponsible with their firearm. They are already well within their rights to eject people for being disorderly.
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Imcrazy
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Re: NEW OHIO GUN LAWS 2013?

Post by Imcrazy »

I agree that if someone wants to have someone removed from their property for their behavior that is fine. Concealed Carry by definition is undetectable thus, if carrying concealed we cannot be a bother. Open carry on the other hand is a recognizable behavior that I can see people not wanting in their business so no problem barring that.
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Tweed Ring
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Re: NEW OHIO GUN LAWS 2013?

Post by Tweed Ring »

BobK wrote:
Imcrazy wrote:EDIT: I would like to hear from those who disagree why they feel that because someone owns a piece of land that it gives them the right to strip me of my god given right to self defense. ?
If you don't like my rules for the use of my land, then don't enter my property. I am not stripping you of anything, as you are free to go elsewhere.
Exactly.
Tweed Ring
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Re: NEW OHIO GUN LAWS 2013?

Post by Tweed Ring »

Cynyster wrote:
Imcrazy wrote:Eliminate the criminal nature of no gun signs would be excellent. Private property rights don't trump the right to defend myself.

EDIT: I would like to hear from those who disagree why they feel that because someone owns a piece of land that it gives them the right to strip me of my god given right to self defense. ?
My particular take on this is relatively straight forward. Private Property reigns supreme. If I don't want a person on my property they are trespassing. end of story. The actual reason for it is irrelevant (I might not like that persons accent or perfume) .

Business' on the other hand, Is not private. It may be privately owned, but if you have employees ( not co-owners etc) they have already given them the permission to be there. Now employers may opt to say that for everyone's safety you cannot carry it around the office... I can see that as a reasonable restriction especially if it is a manufacturing plant where things like sleeves and jewelry can be a safety hazard. Or that a pistol might interfere with a dress code etc. in such cases employer's could have lockers that are secure. And the Employer takes responsibility for the security of those lockers.

For customers they should not be permitted to restrict anyone based on if they are carrying just as they are not permitted to restrict based upon your skin color. If someone is being disruptive or irresponsible with their firearm. They are already well within their rights to eject people for being disorderly.


Business is indeed private. That's why it is known as "the private sector." Private employers may make any rules they wish for employees and/or customers, and enforce same.

I worked for an employer that did not permit tobacco, a legal product, on their property. There used to be a motorcycle-centric tavern in Delaware County which posted a sign reading "No Colors."

Please, please understand that in Ohio, persons who possess a CHL ARE NOT considered members of any protected class (a Term of Art), by virtue of the fact that they have a CHL. Such persons may or may not be protected class members by virtue of other characteristics. We have danced this topic about at least once before.

It's just not the same as discrimination based on various protected class statuses such as race, creed, color, gender, national origin, handicap, etc.

I say again: anything is possible if one does not understand what one is talking about.
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Cynyster
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Re: NEW OHIO GUN LAWS 2013?

Post by Cynyster »

Please, please understand that in Ohio, persons who possess a CHL ARE NOT considered members of any protected class (a Term of Art), by virtue of the fact that they have a CHL. Such persons may or may not be protected class members by virtue of other characteristics. We have danced this topic about at least once before.
Chuckles. it has been my understanding that a CHL holder is a member of a severely discriminated against class of people :mrgreen:
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